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Next level discussions, here, on ETF2L
“Ban this weapon because nobody will ever use it”
“No, allow this weapon, because nobody will ever use it”

Quoted from Selek

I do not agree with the Razorback unlock. It is almost solely used in Highlander with Jarate as a distant second already. Countering Snipers – probably the most used offclass – with Spies in 6s can be a viable alternative to Sniper versus Sniper battles in some occasions. The Razorback almost completely shuts down this tactic, especially since the Ambassador is still banned. Gunning the Sniper down with three Revolver shots takes a comparably long time while being exposed, and time while being exposed is something Spies don't really have versus a decent team.

Eh, if you follow the “suboptimal unlocks should be whitelisted” philosophy (which I will for this post), the Razorback is definitely suboptimal; even without the Ambassador (which should definitely be whitelisted), the Spy will have an advantage in fragging the Sniper due to having an ambush advantage. That or just have a Scout run in to get the Sniper, or do proper coordinated spam. Honestly, the SMG is way better, I really don’t know why anyone would ever use the Razorback.

Quoted from BenBazinga

I’m personally a little sceptical about the cloak and dagger as it takes away the need for good coordination with your team; instead of getting in postion and having 5 seconds for (example) your roamer to jump in for a distraction, your roamer has way more time to jump in which makes running a spy less skillful.
Definitely understand all the advantages, though, just hoping it won’t be too easy to be picked by a spy as medic next season :P

Why would it take away coordination? Wouldn’t that promote making more coordinated plays because your window of opportunity is bigger, not limited to your cloak time? Spies usually only appear on last pushes or holds, where the team that’s holding is very secure against roamer bombs. Allowing more cloak would give Spies better positioning than improvising with what little time they have (which, as kaidus has noted, makes Spies a very gimped class in 6s as it is). Unless you’re a dunderhead medic, I seriously doubt you’ll get statistically picked more than before. It still requires a cautious team to pay attention to your other 5 teammates.

Quoted from Bloodis

Bushwacka with Fan O’War or Buff Banner might change something and be a quite interesting combo to try, as well as The Southern Hospitality with the bleed and damage possibly and how Pyros are that rarely used.
Allowing the Ambassador would be quite bad though in my opinion, since I guess that then there would be a lot more Spy players just headshotting others and not doing much else, banning the Razorback might be a better option to do than allow Ambassador which has its own overpowers.

Bushwacka is useless without Jarate (which I assume will stay banned). Fan O’ War is underpowered, so I don’t really have a comment there (I don’t think any serious Scout would ever use it). Buff Banner, I think, is OP, but I very rarely use it so it’s hard to say. The Southern Hospitality makes basically 0 difference; Engie melee offense is like practically nonexistent. Why would allowing the Ambassador be bad? It’s like a gimped version of a Sniper.

Also, all these allowed unlocks have been in NA since forever and it hasn’t unbalanced the game. I don’t know why people keep conveniently ignoring that.

Tried the CnD in some mixes today and found it EXTREMELY useful, especially combined with l’etranger. With l’etranger, it is basically the IW with the bonus of recharging when you stand still. I honestly see no reason for anyone offclassing to spy to not use this combo as it is fairly uncommon to get a kill with the revolver if you fuck up the stab.

Quoted from MARS^

Tried the CnD in some mixes today and found it EXTREMELY useful, especially combined with l’etranger. With l’etranger, it is basically the IW with the bonus of recharging when you stand still. I honestly see no reason for anyone offclassing to spy to not use this combo as it is fairly uncommon to get a kill with the revolver if you fuck up the stab.

L’etranger would be better than stock, yes, but Diamondback is an option as well, in some situations it would be the difference between getting a pick or two.

Quoted from mana

The Spy will have an advantage in fragging the Sniper due to having an ambush advantage. That or just have a Scout run in to get the Sniper, or do proper coordinated spam. Honestly, the SMG is way better, I really don’t know why anyone would ever use the Razorback.

If I knew the enemy team has a spy I would run the Razorback, spies rarely go for snipers, but if the spy fails the stab and is unable to get the pick on the med/demo, he could’ve gotten a last resort kill on the sniper if he was without the razorback. And if the spy is looking to specifically pick the sniper for some reason, then he would be really mad since a buffed razorback sniper standing near his combo is impossible to pick as a spy, again, all you lose is an smg that comes into play sometimes, but really rarely.

Quoted from mana

Bushwacka is useless without Jarate.

I think Bushwacka should always be used above stock, unless you know the enemy team runs a pyro, the only disadvantage you get is the “20% fire damage vulnerability” which is pretty much nothing, while getting free crits on escape plan soldiers and during buff banners could be neat (that’ll happen once in 50 games, but still)

Quoted from mana

The Southern Hospitality makes basically 0 difference; Engie melee offense is like practically nonexistent.

Pretty much, but it’s still offering bleed damage for free, why not?

Shahanshah, The Shiv and the Family Business could see some use as well.

Quoted from Carlos Kaiser

If I knew the enemy team has a spy I would run the Razorback, spies rarely go for snipers, but if the spy fails the stab and is unable to get the pick on the med/demo, he could’ve gotten a last resort kill on the sniper if he was without the razorback. And if the spy is looking to specifically pick the sniper for some reason, then he would be really mad since a buffed razorback sniper standing near his combo is impossible to pick as a spy, again, all you lose is an smg that comes into play sometimes, but really rarely.

I don’t really like this particular logic; it seems like you’re constructing a very improbable scenario ruled by bizarre decisions and extreme incompetency of both teams. Statistically speaking, a spy is not likely to get a knife kill after the first stab because he’s revealed, and teams will immediately decide to kill off the spy. Most of the time, it’s the first stab (not unlike a sniper’s first bodyshot/headshot) that matters. Assuming competency (because that’s optimal for pushing/defending last holds), a spy will always decide to go for the medic or demo. FAILING THAT, a spy is already going to be “mad” (because every time I miss a pick or frag I get mad of course???); the Razorback literally makes no difference because when he’s revealed he’s going to be focused down instantly.

On topic of the SMG…it’s a far more useful WEAPON (razorback isn’t a weapon, sorry) even if it’s marginally used; it’s like a crazier better pistol. Getting any damage out is far better than using an item that literally only counters one class that’s already situational for 6s.

As a side note, every time I’ve been in one of these threads, people have tried to construct incredibly odd scenarios to try and inflate the value of an unlock. Can you not? Especially if the unlock has already been in NA for literal years?

Quoted from Carlos Kaiser

I think Bushwacka should always be used above stock, unless you know the enemy team runs a pyro, the only disadvantage you get is the “20% fire damage vulnerability” which is pretty much nothing, while getting free crits on escape plan soldiers and during buff banners could be neat (that’ll happen once in 50 games, but still)

Oops, I should’ve clarified; my previous post is actually in agreement with this. I had forgotten about the “mini-crits are crits” part of the Bushwacka. Totally spot on.

Quoted from Carlos Kaiser

Pretty much, but it’s still offering bleed damage for free, why not?

Shahanshah, The Shiv and the Family Business could see some use as well.

Same deal, I was in agreement, I just didn’t word it properly.

Quoted from mana

[…]
It seems like you’re constructing a very improbable scenario ruled by bizarre decisions and extreme incompetency of both teams. Every time I’ve been in one of these threads, people have tried to construct incredibly odd scenarios to try and inflate the value of an unlock.

Welcome to unlock discussion threads (;
On the topic: even if your comms are perfect, then a spy can still get chainstabs. Calling out the spy+mumble delay+time for people to react e.t.c.

Quoted from Carlos Kaiser

[…]
Welcome to unlock discussion threads (;
On the topic: even if your comms are perfect, then a spy can still get chainstabs. Calling out the spy+mumble delay+time for people to react e.t.c.

That still shouldn’t happen the second the spy gets a pick. It’s the fault of the team getting picked to not stop the spy.

Problem isn’t the useless shit getting unlocked, its the possibly useful shit staying locked instead. /sherlock