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Quoted from fraac

Switching to the NA ruleset now would be like switching to Deutschmarks in 1945.

Quoted from fraac

If the NA rules worked with logs I wouldn’t care which system was used. Logs are cool.

Quoted from fraac

I don’t know who you are or when you think I beat you, but you’re welcome to play any of my teams for revenge. Add me on Steam.

Fraac your arguments, comparisions and assumptions are just hilarious, this is nothing personal.

Quoted from Kaneco

[…]

No, sorry but no. It’s still the same game. If you’re bad at it with one ruleset changing it won’t help. You don’t practice for rulesets, sorry but I can’t believe that. When the americans practiced for i46 they practiced for the unlocks which those effecticely change the metagame not a ruleset.

[…]
Sorry but that “passive plays won’t work in NA ruleset” excuse is complete bullshit and if you want proof of that you can watch the last ESEA lan finals, where teams hold a point for almost 45 mins. What happened when europeans got wrecked in i46 was that the european meta was very slow and methodical, dependent on clear advantages, maybe because of no unlocks, when unlocks were introduced things started to change, and we could see it in i49 where with the EU ruleset in fact EU teams were the most aggressive ones, sometimes even super aggressive while AUS and the NA team were much more methodically and passive. So, no, sorry but no, that “the NA ruleset makes us play more aggressive” excuse is bs.

Which wasn’t what I said at all. I said some strategies are more efficient with the EU ruleset and some strategies are more efficient with the NA ruleset. If you’re only good at strategy A when strategy B is more useful in the NA ruleset, and vice versa, you’re going to be at a disadvantage. It doesn’t necessarily apply to you because you don’t play on a high skill level, but for top teams choosing strategy A over strategy B or executing strategy B poorly can be the difference between a loss and a win. So yes, you have to practise for both mindsets, otherwise you’re going to be at a disadvantage.

hmmm, I don’t know if you understood what I said, what I said is that the NA ruleset requires a more prepared infrastructure than the EU ruleset, and you can’t deny that. If you want to use the NA ruleset you need to have a good infrastructure or are you going to ask teams to change teams manually ? Etc etc etc.. Its just one of the examples. It requires much more hassle than the EU ruleset which is much more straightforward. Also arranging cup bracked and games is much easier with the EU ruleset. I am speaking from experience since I am running the newbie 6v6 cup.

I understood completely, and I disagree. The increased amount of “infrastructure” and work you need to play with the NA ruleset is trivial and shouldn’t even be worth discussing.

But then that would make the NA ruleset completely irrelevant if you change it according to your preference. The purpose of having the NA ruleset would be 1) A step towards a unified ruleset 2) Avoid map asymmetrical characteristics by changing teams. If you are chaning anything to it you completely defeat the purpose of implementing it in the first place.

Nah, it’s the concept of best of 9 with two halves and a half-time. The map symmetry aspect is fairly trivial as it’s not going to affect any games, except on maps like Granary and Viaduct. So giving the teams the option to force a team switch in these cases is probably the most effective thing to do without having an automatic plug-in that does it for you.

I could go on, but just want to add I am for a unified ruleset, but I think it should be decided among all the scenes for the better of it, even some americans have started to support the EU ruleset lately. I think itwould be much more sensible to implement a universal ruleset that is as straightforward and league/spectator-friendly as possible, and having in consideration the NA and the EU ruleset the EU ruleset takes clear advantage here

You’d have to be pretty naïve to genuinely believe that there is a chance of ESEA using the EU ruleset. ESEA isn’t going to change anything unless a major part of the competitive userbase wants it (some Americans isn’t enough). It’s not in their interest to provide a ruleset that is league friendly as they are a commercial enterprise and they have already programmed a plug-in that works. By changing to a league friendly ruleset, they would have to spend money reprogramming their plug-in to account for EU rules, and they would give a tool for competitors to use. In the aspect of spectator friendliness, the ruleset is a minor factor. Nobody is going to leave a Twitch stream because you’re playing with the American ruleset.

Quoted from Admirable

[…]

My point is don’t be afraid of change because it might incur some initial discomfort.
Yes, the current system is good, but the NA or hybrid rule set can be even better!

I’m tempted to dig a few of your past anti-unlock posts but I don’t want to go there.

Point is that argument was ridiculous and completely offtopic, it’s not disconfort, it’s simply the hassle it required, both from players, casters, league admins, etc. EU ruleset is much more efficiente and you really can’t deny it, when NA ruleset games can go anywwhere between 10 mins and 60 mins and EU games can go up to a maximum of 30 mins that alone is advantage enough in terms of scheduling over any other ruleset

so much text, keep it short and sweet
if etf2l changed the scoring system to keep in check with ESEA it would be better for viewers
it also means smoother games as people dont accidentally execute the wrong configs in matches
the two different rulesets may also change the playstyle of a team and make them slightly worse in both playstyles
if etf2l keep their scoring system it may also mean that a team has to practice 3 maps in a week (even without wildcards)

Quoted from ondkaja

Which wasn’t what I said at all. I said some strategies are more efficient with the EU ruleset and some strategies are more efficient with the NA ruleset. If you’re only good at strategy A when strategy B is more useful in the NA ruleset, and vice versa, you’re going to be at a disadvantage. It doesn’t necessarily apply to you because you don’t play on a high skill level, but for top teams choosing strategy A over strategy B or executing strategy B poorly can be the difference between a loss and a win. So yes, you have to practise for both mindsets, otherwise you’re going to be at a disadvantage.

But thats exactly what I am denying, there are no different strategies depending on the rulesets, the game is still the same, the meta is the same the basics all apply, I can’t even comprehend how the ruleset would have any major impact on team play other than a slight mindset change. You’re not going to practise a different game, you’re still going to be practising tf2 6v6 whether you use the NA or the EU ruleset so sorry but I can’t comprehend that excuse

Quoted from ondkaja

I understood completely, and I disagree. The increased amount of “infrastructure” and work you need to play with the NA ruleset is trivial and shouldn’t even be worth discussing.

No it’s not, just by scheduling alone I’m having a major headache organizing the comp.tf cups. And that’s just one of the problems. It’s much harder from an admin pov to get a cup with the NA ruleset going than one with the EU ruleset which is more straight forward

Quoted from ondkaja

Nah, it’s the concept of best of 9 with two halves and a half-time. The map symmetry aspect is fairly trivial as it’s not going to affect any games, except on maps like Granary and Viaduct. So giving the teams the option to force a team switch in these cases is probably the most effective thing to do without having an automatic plug-in that does it for you.

Well, I really think you’re missing the point here, because half time is there in the NA ruleset mainly for exchanging sides, so removing that option or making it not obligatory would just render most part of the change to this ruleset useless.

Quoted from ondkaja

You’d have to be pretty naïve to genuinely believe that there is a chance of ESEA using the EU ruleset. ESEA isn’t going to change anything unless a major part of the competitive userbase wants it (some Americans isn’t enough). It’s not in their interest to provide a ruleset that is league friendly as they are a commercial enterprise and they have already programmed a plug-in that works. By changing to a league friendly ruleset, they would have to spend money reprogramming their plug-in to account for EU rules, and they would give a tool for competitors to use. In the aspect of spectator friendliness, the ruleset is a minor factor. Nobody is going to leave a Twitch stream because you’re playing with the American ruleset.

I agree, ESEA won’t change their ruleset unless there’s a major outcry for it, but we shouldn’t change it as well just because ESEA is coming to Europe, they have done nothing worthy to even deserve the rampant change of our standards to match theirs. And while I am for a unified ruleset I think we shouldn’t be the ones to change, or at least find a middle ground here. I will get more in depth with it in a later wall of text

Quoted from ondkaja

Care to explain HOW it’s so much more demanding for an admin to run a normal cup (i.e. not newbie cups) with NA rules compared to EU rules? Delays aren’t much of a problem in cups with NA rules since you often finish a match before the timelimit runs out.

I’ll take this one! While I am a big fan of the NA ruleset, this is its biggest flaw. A match can take anywhere from 10 – 60 minutes and while most matches end before the time limit is met, you still have to calculate with ~75 minutes per round (including delays). You can not just schedule the following round for “whenever the previous round is played” because that takes away any grounds for claiming a forfeit win if the opponent does not show and the teams that finish earlier may have to wait for a long time. This makes it very hard to fit in more than 3 bo1 rounds or 1 bo3 round into one night.

Quoted from ondkaja

[…]

A very valid point, one-night cups would either have to start early on the day or not have that many rounds. But how does that equal to more work for the admin?

Well, the ruleset itself does not really influence the amount of admin work you have to put in (except that you need to be around for the duration of the cup, which means NA ruleset = more work because the rounds take longer). It is just not suited very well for quick cups with few down time.

Ooooh, this is a tough one…how can we ever solve this tricky situation?

One night cups get played with win diff 5 and 30 minutes time limit.

OMG ME SO PRO AT FINKING!