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cant we just unban everything and start playing with two pyroes instead? that way nobody is gonna need to learn anything

Quoted from envy

. But demo can. No reason for the last main class in 6s (i.e. scout) to stay useless.
2. Lobbies? Great example. Would clap.
3. Thanks God, less trap-checking/uber stalemating.
4. Equalizer. Following your way of thinking: “if you lose both scouts then you are punished by not being able to finish off 15 hp sollies”. Really, it’s pretty hard to run away on such a low health when you chased with shotgun/scattergun fire. If Medic get killed with equalizer, blame scouts, it’s their fault.
Boston Basher. As I said, “losing sollies = not being build uber faster” is a lame argument. Also, hard get killed with it, and easy to kill melee scout, in case if weapon will be used in the way it meant to.
Gunboats. Shotgun is very efficient weapon against scouts and losing it harmful for self-defense. Talking about 2-3 jumps on medic, I doubt it’s easy to kill him while you have 1-2 rockets loaded, and no other weapon. Again, if Gunboats solly kill anything, blame scouts. Team status: punished.
Actually, I can justify even Backburner, not talking about other weapons: if your team was bad enough to let the Pyro behind you, get your punishment.
tl;dr unban basher, gunboats, equalizer

1. The demoman could do it, but then he loses the ability to stickytrap, because building with pipes isn’t that effective (You need a wall next to you, pipes easily go somewhere random, you can’t defend yourself that easily anymore….)
It’s demoman’s core ability to be able to build as well. The Scout doesn’t have this ability.

2. Didn’t find the original post, can’t comment.

3. So you are saying medic’s ability to uber/demo’s ability to stickytrap should be removed from the game itself?

4. Yes It’s actually pretty damn easy to escape with the equalizer. At least from demo’s pov there isn’t much you could do if a soldier decides to flee. In vanilla ruleset, the soldier can’t flee and the demo gets the kill he deserves. (or the soldier deserved to be killed)
I don’t think the killing power of Equalizer is the problem because it’s easy to counter, but rather the speed.
Why do you think it’s an lame argument? Should scouts be allowed to get their own uber if their medic dies? No, because it’s medic’s job to give ubers. So it’s soldiers’ job to build uber (or demoman’s if he’s available)
Why would a gunboats soldier need a shotgun anyway? His job is to bomb. Nothing else. Just bomb, bomb, bomb and bomb more. Of course it’s fun as hell for the soldier, but from the medics’ and demos’ pov it isn’t, because they don’t have a real counter to counter gunboats bombing (Unless airpiped). However, bombing using the shotgun is pretty hard for the soldier and therefore you need great teamwork to be able to bomb efficiently.

tl;dr these weapons give their respective classes power to do things they aren’t supposed to do. inb4 scouts with their own medigun.

Btw, I’m kinda bad in arguing, so you’ll probably find lots of flaws. Go ahead and take advantage of them :)

AND, You should speak with CrashSite, he likes vanilla more than you love unlocks.

Quoted from CrashSite

[…]
Since I get bored often, happy to answer any questions you have.

Why are so many people happy about thalash being banned? It’s not nice. :(

Oh man please don’t.
And is there actually people suggesting jarate’s and gunslingers?
Yea lets make a sniper throw a piss jar into top lobby without any endangering of himself because he can THROW IT, let a soldier run in and profit is to be made.
Equalizer is overpowered too.

You could also just allow EVERYTHING in TF2. If everything’s “OP”, nothing’s OP. Problem solved.

Instead of changing unlock rules we should really try playing the first to five rule as it decreases the amount of stalemate situations. Other than that nothing needs to be changed.

Quoted from envy

[…]
1. But you won’t be thinking about a good trap instead of building uber in case of -4. So it’s either try to kill enemy medic with pretty low possibility using a trap or surely and faster to build your own, and fight on an equal. Anyway, it’s all div5 tactics, so I’ll just say possibility to build uber with stickies is still exist.
2. Well, I am not pro for current vanilla, so it’s not me who like to remove things, haha. The only thing implied there that it will speed up gameplay. A lot.
3. Didn’t say anything otherwise about demo in this case, especially about totally not being able to kill solly on distance. But for scouts, solly running faster than them it’s pretty much a sign “look at me, 15 hp here”, so, as stated above, it’s scouts job to finish off escaping enemies.
4. He don’t bomb 24/7. Or it will be 5v6 game.
5. Scattergun spam? It works against “usual” roamers and surely will help against Gunboats. Just a few shots and solly falling down like a rock.
6. This is an actual problem in understanding unlocks. I get impression people love all that masochism and roleplays: “classes supposed to, not supposed to”. I may counter arguments of this kind with example of ubersaw: medic ain’t supposed to fight others with melee weapon to get ubercharge; his work is to heal people; pocket should defend him, not ubersaw. But why it has been allowed? Because it varies gameplay (and in some type of situations speed it up; hello, Kritzkrieg). I don’t need to say this weapon is a logical upgrade of bonesaw, because actually have no real downsides; slower firing speed? It’s as funny as “no random critical hits”.
7. I did read his post on SPUF (or wherever it has been posted), not really interesting, since his only so called “arguments” were “too OP” or “shit, i.e. useless weapon”.

Well I aplogise about that one post, was super tired and wasn’t thinking too well, my responses in other threads more accurately reflect my opinions.

The point that is trying to be made is that a lot of the unlocks mention merely reward failure, or at least make it less painful. The BB allows uber to build by scouts, so it punishes losing both your sollys less. Now you can argue about the demo, but it doesn’t matter, as we are talking about the scouts, since you can simply change the arguement to: “losing you demo and sollys”.

No response to your second point.

As a roamer who played when equalizer was allowed, I can confirm it is a broken piece of shit. If you have half decent movement you can get yourself into stupid situations and walk out alive. People always think that if you can’t kill someone on 15 hp, then it is your fault. But if that was the case then nobody would use equalizer. I can dodge scout shots even when running as solly normally, equalizer makes it far too easy. You are also ignoring the fact that the solly will not be the only target. Are you going to chase the solly who is out of the fight for 10 secs, or stop your medic getting bombed by the other solly?

I don’t think he literally means 24/7, but bombing is frustrating for the medic and since losing a roamer is not that huge, it is almost always worth the bomb, with gunboats just makes it that bit easier.

So you are putting your scouts with your combo? Both of them? Cos what I normally do is ask for distraction then bomb, it is hard for a single scout to shut down a bomber, and unless you want your flanks exposed you ain’t putting both your scouts there.

Actually the Ubersaw is an anomaly, it is in fact OP as hell and as you say go out of character for the medic. The reason it is allowed is that it adds something to the medic, a class that people sometimes consider dull. It is not the best of reasons, but it has become so ingrained it won’t change. On the other hand it doesn’t drastically change the class in anyway. The medic has always had the option to meele, it is just the reward that has changed. You don’t see medics only going for meele or being “combat medics”, so the class role has remained the same, focus on healing and gaining uber.

But the main arguments for Vanilla are as followed:

-Consistency

In fact one of the most important for an e-sport. This is two-fold. The first being consistency between the leagues. This means everyone knows what unlocks are where and what can be used, it allows the meta to develop and thrive, as there are not multiple ways to play the game due to unlocks.

The second is specators, new unlocks mean that spectators will have to learn something new, which has been proven to be a bad thing. Consistency in watching a sport is important if it is to grow.

-No threads like these

People like different unlocks, a lot of drama was created about which unlocks should be allowed etc etc. It got to the point where the division between divisions (you like that?) was getting out of hand. This way there are no arguments and we can unite as a scene.

-Focus on fundamentals

Unlocks can detract from learning the fundamentals of the game. The equalizer takes skill from the medic and solly on rollouts, the gunboats take the skill from bombing, the equalizer takes skill from not getting picked, so you don’t have to learn not to overextend. The bonk means you can get behind for free, meaning there is no skill in hiding or flanking.

Unlocks tend to detract from the game, focusing more on teamwork, comms and individual play is more important and ultimately makes the game worse for everyone.

-Crutches and bad design

A lot of unlocks just makes things easier. Others are useless. And one or two are really well balanced.

The problem is getting to the well balanced ones you have to wade through a sea of bad ones. And at the end you have to ask if it was worth it.

The crutches and useless ones should go, we can agree on that.

See flaregun, a great unlock, on the other hand it will not make the pyro any more viable, the issue with the pyro is not the lack of damage, it is the lack of mobility. So if you allow the flaregun you haven’t in fact really changed much.

Hope that helps. Might have forgot some things.