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incase you ever wondered why esea is so much better than etf2l. we are a community run league and they are not :D

Quoted from Kaneco

[…]I agree with you that they are better at the game and all that stuff, but if you are using that sample for a biased view on the matter then that defeats the purpose of having a committee in the first place.

I’m sorry, but when you visit your doctor, and he tells you you have “condition X” and you need to take “medicine Y” do you tell him he’s biased because he’s actually studied medicine and is good at it?

If you want to call knowledge and insight forms of “bias”, then I would say they’re easily the best kind of bias :D

Anyway, I’ll just quote myself from many pages back:

Quoted from skeej

[…] The most efficient and fair practical solution to getting to a new unlock concensus would still be an elected/chosen panel of admins/players system in my opinion. This panel should definitely be weighted more (but not exclusively) towards higher division players (reasons why are obvious and also have been elaborated on in the past).

So, yes, every div should have a say, but there should be a weighting system so that we still give a slight edge to the panel members with more experience and insight. Which seems logical, like I just illustrated above.

But tbh, when I was searching back for my 1st post I also stumbled into Admirable’s post again, and he has a point. Instead of desperately trying to get unlock X in the game, just try to get fucking good at a class? At this moment we only have a tiny handful of players who are somewhat close to the imaginary skillceiling of their own class. We need more of these guys.

Quoted from skeej

[…]

I’m sorry, but when you visit your doctor, and he tells you you have “condition X” and you need to take “medicine Y” do you tell him he’s biased because he’s actually studied medicine and is good at it?

If you want to call knowledge and insight forms of “bias”, then I would say they’re easily the best kind of bias :D

That’s a good way to put it but also a good way to distort what I meant, if you’re gonna do comparisons then compare it with politics. There are people who study politics but they don’t get the majority of the decision making power in the political system. Poor people also vote, people with less studies or qualifications also get the right to vote, if those people are not getting the right to vote, it means the elite will always have a favorable saying on the matter and thus, there’s no progress because the elite is always fine with whatever the state of things for poor people is. You get the point about these comparisons…

Quoted from skeej

So, yes, every div should have a say, but there should be a weighting system so that we still give a slight edge to the panel members with more experience and insight. Which seems logical, like I just illustrated above.

But tbh, when I was searching back for my 1st post I also stumbled into Admirable’s post again, and he has a point. Instead of desperately trying to get unlock X in the game, just try to get fucking good at a class? At this moment we only have a tiny handful of players who are somewhat close to the imaginary skillceiling of their own class. We need more of these guys.

Completly agree with the weighting system favorable to more experienced members, I wasn’t saying that I wanted div5+ or whatever to have all the power either. But that is a lot different to a system that relies entirely on 2 or 3 dozen of prem players like some people were saying

And the “get good scrub” argument is really out of date

Quoted from Buffalo Bill

[…]
Why should random person A from a low skill level (and thus almost certainly a limited understanding) have as much say as person B from a high skill level (who thus almost certainly fully understands it)?

I wasn’t saying that either, check above. Just don’t completely censor a big part of the community because they “lack the understanding” that the prem players have of the game. Not the same weight but not completely ignored either. As for unlocks, a committee if created would have to be balanced ;)

Quoted from Buffalo Bill

[…]

Entirely possible they will feel like that. Doesn’t negate the fact they aren’t nearly as good and as such can’t be relied on to fully understand it. Why should random person A from a low skill level (and thus almost certainly a limited understanding) have as much say as person B from a high skill level (who thus almost certainly fully understands it)?

Simply put, they are the experts. You and all the other lower skilled players are not. As you do with everything you trust the experts as they know far more than you do.

I don’t agree with this to be honest. Someone may have worse hand-eye coordination, and can’t aim, yet plays scout and has a great understanding of the game. Not to mention, a large number of these lower division players probably have a greater understanding of the unlocks in question than those who simply play vanilla tf2, so they would be the more qualified to say how these unlocks would effect things.

Not to mention, TF2 is a team game. You might have an individual in a team who has an extremely good understanding of the game, but one player doesn’t carry a team. His team could be sat in division 6 as he’s playing with friends, but he might personally have a greater understanding of the game than anyone else.

You don’t rate a strategist by their ability in combat. It would be fair to say that premiership players in general, _might_ have a greater understanding of the game, and it is also fair to say that premiership players, are better at executing their understanding in a game, but the assumptions you’re making are way off.

Ultimately the decision should be based off the fun that teams have playing the game. If these unlocks do effect the game, and make it no longer fun for the _majority_, then you have your next decision, as everyone is playing in this league for fun, and different people have different ideas on what makes the game fun for them. The premiership might have a different view to the rest, but it’s not just about them.

Kaneco: about the political anology; actually if you ask most political experts nowadays, we see a global failure of absolute democracy, because every little party needs a say in everything nowadays, and policymakers cant make any decision anymore without groups of people getting pissed off and taking action. Democracy is the rule of the majority, it’s decisionmaking removed of all it’s rationality. In actual politics it may be the lesser of evils, but for an online league I don’t think it’s the proper way to run things.

Quoted from AcidReniX

[…]

I don’t agree with this to be honest. Someone may have worse hand-eye coordination, and can’t aim, yet plays scout and has a great understanding of the game.

C’mon, Bill says “almost certainly” which already takes into account the rare exceptions. For instance: my aim is fucking horrible, thats why I play medic. But tbh, you can still play soldier or demo to a decent level with shitty aim. If you KNOW that you have bad aim, why play scout? Stick to what you’re good at.

To be honest though: unless you have some severe motoric disorder, I can’t believe that you can be bad at this game if you’re intelligent/empathic enough, and wánt to be good. And I don’t think people with motoric disorders generally play these type of games.

This actually brings me back to the earlier point that we were discussing about removing TF2 from its fps core. If such a hypothetical amazing player with a motoric disorder will plead for change in TF2, he will obviously plead for the type of change that lowers the effectiveness of hand-eye co-ordination in combat situations.

Not to mention, a large number of these lower division players probably have a greater understanding of the unlocks in question than those who simply play vanilla tf2, so they would be the more qualified to say how these unlocks would effect things.

I assume most of these teams that actually tryhard (play to win) will obviously spend just as much time playing ETF2L-ruleset pcws. What would make you assume that these low div players have greater understandings of the unlocks? Because they play pub a bit more?

You don’t rate a strategist by their ability in combat. It would be fair to say that premiership players in general, _might_ have a greater understanding of the game, and it is also fair to say that premiership players, are better at executing their understanding in a game, but the assumptions you’re making are way off.

Ok same point, Bill did imply a generality. I guess we can all agree on the same thing here.

Ultimately the decision should be based off the fun that teams have playing the game. If these unlocks do effect the game, and make it no longer fun for the _majority_, then you have your next decision, as everyone is playing in this league for fun, and different people have different ideas on what makes the game fun for them. The premiership might have a different view to the rest, but it’s not just about them.

That’s why: panel time!

Also Arx, I think most current prem teams atm wouldn’t really mind a new ruleset. It just depends on the unlocks allowed. With some more “old establishment” probably leaving for S13, we will see even more lenience towards certain unlocks from the higher div teams, I expect.

Quoted from Oafmeal

So… Unlock rules in ESEA work like this,

Invite team captains vote at the beginning of each season yay or nay on every unlock. New unlocks mid season are automatically banned to maintain consistency. We did just have an exception with the Equalizer being split into two items… Escape plan is allowed as it’s a nerf.

It’s not some huge committee, just a spreadsheet with a yes and no column.

The best players decide how the game is played??? HOW COULD THAT EVER WORK PEOPLE?!?! ;)

Quoted from Sasuke

[…]
[…]

Please upload a demo of you doing so if you don’t mind. Just the jumps to mid.

When I get back from China sure <3

For the record, off wall, extra rocket on pipe, normal jump through house, then jump

P.S

Are we really fucking doing this again? I love arguments! So are we going to allow the Escape Plan, I do like abusing the fuck out of that <3

Quoted from Snyyppis

Medic is such a tedious class to play anyway, let them have some fun.

So is Soldier…

Quoted from Oafmeal

It’s not some huge committee, just a spreadsheet with a yes and no column.

I think this is an important side note to take into consideration when you do go and create a panel or committee or whatever. Your panel will consist of different people with different opinions, not entirely unlike the rest of the community, and you too will have shit storms of discussion and drama and what not.
Keep it a simple yes/no matter and you will have none of that. Or less, I suppose.

Drama will remain as half a community will disagree with any decisions made, that’s a guarantee at least.