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Updating cp_snakewater

Created 10th February 2016 @ 21:53

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Mould

autistic

every time I rollout I internally scream when I see the door on a wall which literally ends a meter to the left

Minishoes

TC

bring back the yoshi rock on last

The map does tend to stalemate a bit on last in pubs (more so than other 5cps), but I’m not really sure how to solve that (like bringing the second forward spawn more forward) without breaking the balance for comp. Putting a nobuild on top of that roof would help, though.

choiie

keso

Hey everyone,

At long last I’ve been able to work with the changes and bugfixes you’ve suggested.

Here’s the current updated version: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_snakewater_u1.bsp.bz2

Changelog u1:

* Loads of small clipping fixes, the map should be a LOT smoother to play now
* Loads of visual fixes
* Slightly tweaked last, adding a fence and moving the ramp slightly. Image: http://www.steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=643766053
* Rotated the little balcony near the shacks at mid. This change might be reverted if it’s impopular.
* Added an awning to prevent spam from the walkway above grass connector
* Fixed spawnpoints
* Changed BLU Lobby to mirror RED
* The old sky is back! Hooray!

If you get to playtest this version, please give me your feedback! There are likely to be a thousand new bugs for the hundreds that I fixed, so your bugfinding skills are always appreciated.

Cheers,
chojje


Last edited by choiie,

Silver Tosspot

(°)>

ooh boy

ondkaja

SORA⚡️

Remove these canopies so you can rocket jump more easily. Would make it easier to break stalemates if you could have more freedom rocket jumping.
http://puu.sh/nDXUk/8707582bc2.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDXVd/63b9d79d14.jpg

These little things sticking out of walls are interfering with gameplay and should be removed:
http://puu.sh/nDXVG/0a5fb3a1bd.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDYzN/f87f1fa9e2.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDYAj/d4e2a3fea7.jpg

Remove this sticky trap spot please:
http://puu.sh/nDY1M/91f0b683b8.jpg (inside the door frame)

I’d prefer if all invisible sticky trap spots were removed, it’s just not practical to check so you just position yourself away from those, but you shouldn’t have to:
http://puu.sh/nDYDo/c98e58ec67.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDYER/db8fd9f7f9.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDYDL/f8a4d2f530.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDYIj/09d39397c7.jpg

IMO, any sticky trap that can be hidden inside something, which you have to spam rockets or bullets at to check from certain angles, is just a cheap sticky spot and bad for game play. If you have the gamesense to deduce there’s a sticky trap somewhere, you should be able to spot it by just looking at it, you shouldn’t have to spam it. All geometry obscuring the sticky traps should also block the explosions. These sticky traps also become useless the higher level you play at, because people become conditioned to avoid these sticky spots, which is more practical than checking them. I get these sticky spots are “fun”, but they are bad for gameplay.

http://puu.sh/nDYJJ/21d7ad4da3.jpg (in the bucket)
The bucket in lobby is also an offender.

The geometry here produces annoying splash bugs and eats rockets:
http://puu.sh/nDYav/5c80d8cfdf.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDYd7/d8574455cd.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDYdy/f462ebca6e.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDYdN/d333292a7a.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDYmY/d5ab2ba820.jpg (replace with flat planks)
http://puu.sh/nDZg7/2ef60b0c7f.jpg

Bad clipping:
http://puu.sh/nDY0l/7b0ecedc04.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDYjO/25766a80bb.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDYqP/8e2c42db6b.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDYtY/c665e227f9.jpg (there’s an invisible corner you can get stuck on)
http://puu.sh/nDYgf/ef2b66fb28.jpg (this prop is just dire)
http://puu.sh/nDYs1/6ba87ab3ca.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDYsc/cc618d2bdf.jpg

These hiding spots need to be fixed:
http://puu.sh/nDYce/757d3e9146.jpg (source bug, you can stand on top of slanted clip brushes even if they are adjacent to a wall).
http://puu.sh/nDZhL/13bc7ce32e.jpg (introduced with this update actually!)
http://puu.sh/nDZ2F/ab17131158.jpg (only works on blue)

These diagonal thingies are solid while they are non-solid elsewhere on this level:
http://puu.sh/nDYwB/3fffcd1944.jpg

Annoying stepsize with the potential of interrupting stair surfs:
http://puu.sh/nDZ5z/4e776b75b7.jpg

You have more vision to the left side on red lobby than in blue lobby:
http://puu.sh/nDYZl/0eb19d3eea.jpg
http://puu.sh/nDYYT/c52751991b.jpg

This sawblade makes noise on one side of the map but not the other:
http://puu.sh/nDZdf/d5ac2cad7b.jpg

Yes, I’m very nitpicky. I haven’t even started on the map, I could show you almost every single splash bug, clipping issue and other issues if you have the patience for it. I just think competitive maps should strive to be perfect!

As for gameplay, I think pushing last is still the largest problem in the map. It’s just very hard to get in if there is a sentry and/or a heavy. If you commit a little to a last fight, you will most likely not get anything done, whereas if you commit a lot, you will most likely get wiped and lose 2nd. So, you need to have some sort of advantage when pushing last, but getting that advantage is near impossible. If you bomb in a soldier, he will almost never get the force. So you resort to offclasses, trying to prod last forever until you finally get an advantage. But then you have an offclass to push with, which makes it harder for you to push last. The result is just a boring slugfest.

Thanks for working on the map again!

girmporio

Quoted from ondkaja

http://puu.sh/nDZhL/13bc7ce32e.jpg (introduced with this update actually!)

Isn’t that one ancient though? Or maybe I am thinking of a different one.


Last edited by girmporio,

choiie

keso

Quoted from ondkaja

bugs

Wow. Thanks Ondkaja, I was expecting I had just barely started scratching the surface, so I will definitely dive into these shortly.

I really don’t mind nitpicking – I believe every case must be treated and evaluated individually, so I really appreciate having a lot to work with.

That being I said, I’m wavering between a completely streamlined experience and some quirks which grant opportunities for creativity.

The sticky issue is a perfect example – if you add a small number I believe it adds to the complexity of the game; when you approach an area before the enemy has expended their stickies, you will have to move more carefully. If this is handled carefully, I think it adds to the game without forcing stale and defensive gameplay.

Another is the tradeoff between gameplay and aesthetic components. I can definitely appreciate the idea of “interfering with gameplay” => removed. However, some features, like the logs on mid interferring with mobility, change up how you can approach the area as a player, and may help change the dynamic of the height advantage imposed by the level.

I will look at your comment and take every suggestion under careful consideration. I’d be really happy to get more input if you have the time!

Cheers,
chojje

ondkaja

SORA⚡️

Quoted from choiie

[…]

Wow. Thanks Ondkaja, I was expecting I had just barely started scratching the surface, so I will definitely dive into these shortly.

I really don’t mind nitpicking – I believe every case must be treated and evaluated individually, so I really appreciate having a lot to work with.

That being I said, I’m wavering between a completely streamlined experience and some quirks which grant opportunities for creativity.

The sticky issue is a perfect example – if you add a small number I believe it adds to the complexity of the game; when you approach an area before the enemy has expended their stickies, you will have to move more carefully. If this is handled carefully, I think it adds to the game without forcing stale and defensive gameplay.

Another is the tradeoff between gameplay and aesthetic components. I can definitely appreciate the idea of “interfering with gameplay” => removed. However, some features, like the logs on mid interferring with mobility, change up how you can approach the area as a player, and may help change the dynamic of the height advantage imposed by the level.

I will look at your comment and take every suggestion under careful consideration. I’d be really happy to get more input if you have the time!

Cheers,
chojje

I respectfully disagree with some of your points. In my opinion, competitive maps should strive towards gameplay perfection. Aesthetics are completely secondary to my enjoyment of the map as a competitive player. I’m not saying it’s bad that maps look good (they actually need to also look good), but it should never negatively interfere with gameplay. For example, I’m playing medic on Snakewater mid and a soldier bombs me, so I attempt to do a surf only to accidentally hit the piece of the building that’s sticking out (has actually happened a couple of times), making me an easy frag. Things like that are incredibly frustrating and also somewhat counter-intuitive, I hit a good surf, why would some dumb thing like that punish me for it?

In fact, it doesn’t really matter if certain areas are a bit bland, because in the heat of the moment, players will not notice it. For example the wall on 2fort courtyard: http://www.nodraw.net/2010/09/detail-of-tf2-pt-4/

My complaint about the logs wasn’t about the height variation, in fact I think the height variation is a good thing and doesn’t interfere with mobility. My complaint is that the gap in the middle causes splash bugs. A simple blockbullet brush would probably solve that issue.

As for the sticky traps. I love quirky map mechanics, such as skill jumps and hiding spots. I just think invisible sticky traps are dumb and don’t do what they are supposed to do. The only thing different you have to do when pushing the point when there’s an invisible sticky trap, is to not stand near the bucket. And well, Snakewater mid is already one of the chokier points to push, there are a million sticky spots, limited mobility to dodge spam, it doesn’t really also need to have invisible sticky trap spots to slow you down even more (which it doesn’t even do). If you want to spice up the quirkyness of the map, I think you should consider bringing the hiding spot on the tree and the pillar in sawmill back, they were spots that were fun to use, easy to check and punishing if you didn’t check them.

doks

Invis stickies are on other maps aswell. Ignore that.
Do not change how sawroom works. Thats part of snakewater. Its just what it is.
The only real problem is last point, where with 100% uber advantage you can still get nothing out of it.

Silver Tosspot

(°)>

Quoted from doks

Invis stickies are on other maps aswell. Ignore that.

How is that an argument? It’s like saying “cancer’s everywhere, don’t cure it”.

choiie

keso

Hey,

I’ve kept working on the next version through the weekend. Hopefully I will be able to fix most bugs with some quick iterations now, and then get some playtesting on a stable version.

Here’s the current version, u2: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_snakewater_u2.bsp.bz2

Changelog u2:

Major:
* Added small healthkit in lobby
* Reverted roof edges
* Roof clippings are far more consistent
* Changed train crates
* Removed canopy above saw – 2 connector (I might do this for the saw – mid connector as well). Image: http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/320125724624456428/C6CBA511B567D6B0EB3186804BA2BA278D278854/ http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/320125724624456839/B441788A5EADE3EC934AF95D5A06FB5CF433F42A/

Minor:
* Removed superfluous clipping
* Changed solidity of various props
* Fixed stickies in shutter door on last
* Reverted awning over grass
* Fixed getting stuck behind dino rock
* Further improved ground smoothness
* Fixed missing textures/Z-fighting
* Blocked off area below old dropdown
* Blocked off area below ramp on 2
* Fixed splash bug on lobby-2 ramp
* Changed shutter door prop in lobby
* Moved some building details out of bounds
* Tweaked mid platform rotation
* Reduced sightline in lobby

As always, your feedback and bug finding skills are always appreciated! I think most major clipping bugs have been worked out now. I will have to make a decision about geometry which catches spam.


Last edited by choiie,

doks

As a medic, i liked the canopy, but lets hope this change will make for easier no uber pushes.

Chill Collins

“* Fixed stickies in shutter door on last”
Noooo that was my favourite trap in the game :(

Spriggan

Will Valve add updated map in next update?
upd: Fence is invisible with dxlevel 81( chris’s max fps cfg): http://i.imgur.com/2nEQljQ.jpg


Last edited by Spriggan,

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