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My opinion on how the European scene could go forward

Created 27th August 2012 @ 05:17

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AnimaL

Quoted from ash

[…]

Go ahead and explain the NA captain system then.

Thank you.

read the previous million topics… main thing about captain system is that it promotes trying to be good to get picked again… you would still get picked even when ur bad if you play at pcw time or early pugs when simply there will be 12-13 ppl added… and whats this bad captains thing?! First u start with trusty ppl, then when pld pug numbers are grown bind ability to be captain after certain ammont of pugs and ban anyone who makes shitty teams on purpose… it wont be a lot of work cuz its not in NA

p.s. i dont really care if its captain system or ballance system someone makes, just make something that attracts both new and old players instead of closing eyes and saying everything is right, bcs if it would you wouldnt get single pu pld in a week (prior to lan)


Last edited by AnimaL,

laerin

-9w-

Quoted from ash

[…]

Go ahead and explain the NA captain system then.

Thank you.

Don’t really have an opinion on whether to use the na bot or not (still prefer the original suggestions of just adding an online irc link on the etf2l/vanilla page and removing the auth requirement because people are lazy) but how it works is, anyone with 40 games or more can add up as captain. Once 2 captains, 2 medics and the all the rest are added up, a game starts and the 2 captains pick in a 1-2-2-1-1-2-2-1-1-2 order. Perhaps surprisingly, you often see a requirement of captains at least as often as a need for medics (NA has a lot more people willing to play medic in pickups) even though most people added up can probably captain. In the rules, it states you should only add as captain if you know the people in the channel. Because this caused a lot of people not to be able to play any games because they were never picked, #tf2.pug was created where lower skilled players go and where anyone can captain. Obviously, the people who’ve played enough to be picked 40 times, will know the regulars in the channel a lot more and will both try to pick the best team they can. It works for them but people are more keen to play over there. I decided to just look up a couple names in this thread on the pixel site to see how many games they’d played. For example, ntraum has 17, enef has 13, animal has 283, but the majority of people don’t really care for pickups.


Last edited by laerin,

nTraum

\V/ Gold
LAME

Yes, yes it seems I have to agree that european TF2 is doomed simply by the fact of not having a captain-driven pickup. Thank you for your insight.


Last edited by nTraum,

herpderp

DAKKA

I wonder how active pixel pickup would’ve been these past few days if all time spent on this thread was spent playing pickups instead.

Si^

T2P
[PG]

Night box made an android app for that coming soon to an iPhone near you, compatible with red hat.

If someone takes this bait shame on you.

p.s. the name of his app is:

Captain Pugwash


Last edited by Si^,

T0m

(ETF2L Donator)

Wouldn’t it just be easier to just play the pickups instead of whining about them?
Changing the team system will most probably make no differnece to how active the channel is.

P.S
Adam you’re bare Scottish.

Koeitje

AUTOBOTS

Quoted from nTraum

Yes, yes it seems I have to agree that european TF2 is doomed simply by the fact of not having a captain-driven pickup. Thank you for your insight.

Could you stop trolling like this? People are always slanted for posts such as your own, especially by your fellow members of the admin team, but now you decide to do it yourself. Please.

AnimaL

Quoted from T0m

Wouldn’t it just be easier to just play the pickups instead of whining about them?

Pixel Pickup Pickup Channel :: Bot Offline

go pickup , now!!! :P

Vengeance

Redheads.

skeej

(ETF2L Donator)
UbeR |
Fe |

Quoted from AnimaL

[…]p.s. i dont really care if its captain system or ballance system someone makes, just make something that attracts both new and old players instead of closing eyes and saying everything is right, bcs if it would you wouldnt get single pu pld in a week (prior to lan)

Strange, I talked to Skyride on steam after he posted here and directly posted my responses in this topic afterwards… Guess I forgot to press Add Reply or something :S

Anyway, the possible problems with a captain system that Skyride posted are either irrelevant or can be circumvented in my opinion.

My proposed system:

Medics are always the captains. “Captainship” only means you can pick players, nothing more. Max adds for a pickup is still 12. We can even keep the class-specific add’s, so medics don’t have to bother finding out who plays what. We could also introduce a multi-add system where you can !add demo scout or something, like in tf.mercs.

This fixes the biggest issue with pixelpickup, (aside from the bot being dead or bugged way too often, it happened after i46, and again as I’m typing this post) which is usually a lack of medics. Not many people can often be arsed to medic in pixel. Making it so that they can assemble their own team will incentivise people to go medic again. It will incentivise other players to play well because being picked early (or in the case of a 13+ add system, picked at all) increases e-penis.

Skyride has a point with the captain system, though. People will be people, and for the same reason explained above, biased picks will almost always happen regardless of whether the captains are unbiased or not. No one wants to play with someone who will bring them down or burden them, and no one wants to be in a team full of spastics,

Why is this counter-argument to a captain-style pickup still being used? Nash equilibrium anyone? In simpler terms, there is not just ONE captain, there are TWO. They will both try to pick the best team they can, keeping into consideration the previous pick of the other person and their possible next pick after they picked themselves. I have a certain trust in people. People know people, and the chances of one of the captains picking all the noobs in a 10-man group are pretty slim. Hell, if the captains are in the picking phase, they even have time to go on etf2l and inspect people’s divisions/teams etc. They will do the job that is deemed too complex and intensive for admins to do beforehand in a skillrated bot-divided pickup system. Social control will always trump a needlessly complex and fallible preset system.

There are many ways to variate on the captain style pickup formula. If people disagree with my trust in other people, we can choose a middle ground, and just give each medic the option to friend 2, 3, or 4 people, and have the rest of the players assigned at random by a bot. The rule would be that a medic can only friend an additional player if the other medic has friended the same amount (so you don’t end up with 1 medic friending 4 good players while the other medic doesn’t friend anyone because he doesn’t know people or doesn’t know how the friend system works etc)

We can also make the maximum adds to the pickup 13 or 14, which does introduce the QQ fat kid syndrome again, but it surely will incentivise players to play more properly because they’d like to get picked for any future pickups. Basic supply/demand, survival of the fittest mechanics. Making it only 13 or 14 max adds will minimise the chances of being fatkidded over and over again. You can also add a timer that starts at 12 adds, and if no 13th or 14th player has added after a minute or 2, the picking phase starts, so even the worst players can have a chance of being picked sometimes (but tbh they should just getgood ;)). Be realistic here, we won’t see constant circlejerks add up in large groups, and even if they’d do, we’d get more concurrent pickups running at the same time, making room for newer/unknown players anyway.

With a captain-style pickup I also don’t see the need for AUTH any more. An element of social control is that if a player doesn’t use their ETF2L name in the pickup, they are less trustable. If a bad player returns under a different name, there will be no reason for captains to pick him.

So many advantages! Social control for better quality and more balanced pickups, more incentives to go medic, more incentives for good players to add up alongside unexperienced players, lowered entry bar by removing the need for AUTH, incredibad/abusive players won’t have a chance to sabotage many pickups, it prints money, etc!


Last edited by skeej,

Leif

skeej always the best at arguing! I completely agree with him, we should definitely give a try to the captains system on pixelpickup.
If after a while we see it overall doesnt work well, we can just go back to the bot.


Last edited by Leif,

Tornf4lk

cc//

Quoted from Leif

skeej always the best at arguing! I completely agree with him, we should definitely give a try to the captains system on pixelpickup.
If after a while we see it overall doesnt work well, we can just go back to the bot.

yeah, trath is working on his bot, but we could try this until then and then perhaps compare the two methods when we have experience with them?

Skyride

DUCS

http://etf2l.org/forum/community/topic-15580/page-22/?recent=405323#post-405323

Pennyfarming

Quoted from lolage

Hi, just a random shitters opinion-

In my opinion the one thing that North America has which we don’t is an active pickup channel. I know we have pixel pickup, but it’s hardly active and only really gets people adding up when you’ve spammed your friends list – while in the mean time you may have just got a mix anyway.

Having the pickups means that the lower players get the opportunity to play with some of the higher skilled players which pushes them a lot more than they would playing in their div 3/4/5 games. I’ve played a couple of games on PUG NA and noticed how many of the top players are there playing with the lower skilled guys and not really moaning/raging. I understand that this may be frustrating for some of the top players, but they may have to just take charge and take into consideration that the other players will not have the same aim/game sense as themselves.

After VanillaTV this weekend doing so well with the coverage, and basically showing that it is the home hub of euro tf2 would it not be a good idea to have a VanillaPickup instead of having multiplay pickup1, pixelpickup etc. These pickup channels have never really had any proper advertising/integration with the main etf2l or vanilaltf2 website. This could perhaps be integrated into the sidebars of etf2l and vanillatf2 similar to how the streams are. (I personally am watching a lot more streams just because I can see straight away who’s streaming on the homepage of etf2l/vanillatf2) This could really help the pickups stay active which has been a problem in the past.

Of course there will be other things we can do but this is just one thing which I think we could do easily. Allowing the lower skilled players to get some insight and maybe even build friendships with the higher skilled players is one way to get more teams reaching the next level.

Opinions? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here? 8)

See I think you are right but i dont think we should copy the americans and do pick ups, that means we have less time to talk about gamesense and review demos. Maybe what we should do is have a empty european pick up channel and then ETF2l makes lots of DM servers where we all play and talk about gamesense and how we know high div players.

Then maybe we will catch up to the americans maybe, but to be fair we are already so far ahead of them they just got lucky at lan becuause they had super jet lag which is like jet lag except your so tired everything goes into slow motion and 1 second seems like 10 seconds which means everything is slow right which makes it easier to hit targets cus they slow right. So basiclly I am calling hacks on the Americans and the sooner they are banned the faster we can get right back on track to treating TF2 like an RTS game.

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