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pl_badwater_pro_v
Created 6th May 2015 @ 05:05
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Your point that first and second are weak because third is strong is valid, but it doesn’t make for very entertaining gameplay on these first two points. As you said, first should always be a throwaway, however second must also be sacrificed for a good hold on third. Half of the map is underutilized by both teams so that third can be strong. Maybe this is all badwater ever needs to be, but only testing these changes will tell if the result is worse, equivalent or better.
You will never be able to change 2nd to the way it becomes fully viable to hold full-time, because unlike on 3rd, you can get a cart very close to a cap point and since you added that fence, it is much harder for sniper to prevent enemies from coming onto a 2nd point, Blu team has a free entrance into 2nd because it is not defended by Sniper. If Sniper stands in front of a Fence, he’s close to getting bombed by Soldier or rushed by Scout. So you’re essentially making 2nd point even much easier for Blu to Cap and Less viable for Red to hold it.
The reason why 2nd is never going to be Viable to Hold, is that Enemies have 3 ways where to attack from, which means a Coordination from a Spy sapping Sentry, Scout + Engie + Sniper + Soldier pushing the cart and Combo coming from Back/Front Stairs to kill everyone on the roof, enemy will use Uber ofc, but they have to focus on 2 things, on a cart and Combo, if they don’t stop Combo, then They will all die on the roof, If they don’t stop the Cap, Red has to take a longer path to 2nd.
While on 3rd You have enemies coming from 1 General direction instead of 3, which makes it much Easier to hold, since there are no flanks that can lead enemy team behind 3rd.
Feedback: 1) Lower Fence as much as you can and put a Crate or something so Sniper can jump on it and Snipe from it, but it should be high enough for teammates to get past 2nd without getting Sniped.
Even tho you added a shortcut between Stairs and Bridge (3rd), it doesn’t change much, it is the same thing as if enemies were coming out from Boiler room, yes you can’t afford to stand that close to House anymore, but it is still the same structure, the only Downside for Red team (with your version) is that Scout or Soldier can’t go into Boiler anymore, due to the fact that there’s a long bridge between the Stairs and Bridge, so Scout will either be forced to stay with Engie or keep right side clean but can’t go to Boiler due to a huge risk of getting ambushed from extended bridge.
Feedback: Remove playerclip above a small shack on Bridge, this kinda destroys Soldier’s jump to Balcony. And it’s a cool new spot for Soldier to stand in general
All in all, I just want to say that it will be most likely impossible to alter how the game flows on this map, teams still push in to 3rd from same direction, if Blu pushes from the Bridge, it is the same as if they were pushing from Boiler, just a shortcut + it is also quite chokey now on the Bridge. Making 2nd viable is quite difficult, because there are way too many directions enemies can come from, which means it is much easier for Blu team to sandwich Red team during the push, as in: Blu pushes on the roof, Spy saps or Team focuses Engie and kills him and then sentry, Flank Pushes cart and Red is forced to focus on them, if they try to retreat from the Roof during the push, Flank will get them. So overall I don’t think it’s possible to make 2nd viable.
I would love to give you a feedback, I like to do it, but I don’t see any problems with stock Badwater, the only minor problem on Badwater for me is Last and respawns, I don’t like to respawn at the bottom, but that’s easily prevented by switching classes/loadouts quickly. If Pro version is going to get played on UGC, I would love to see a cast to see if anything is going to be different, just to prove myself wrong or not.
edit: There were no fps issues for me, I said there is always a chance for fps to go down when playing on a de-re-compiled map.
Last edited by Popcorp,
Thanks for the responses SuddenlyStarMia and Popcorp. I didn’t intend to buff the roof hold on 2nd much beyond the addition of the fence to aid in escaping, but the fence alterations sound like a good compromise. I was hoping to see the fence used a bit more in gameplay, as some NA players were theorizing holding near the forward spawn door on 2nd, using the fence to control the cap and allow for easier escape due to the closer positioning to third. Already there seems to be a bit of a theorized split in opinion as to whether the fence helps RED or BLU too much, so maybe slight changes are in order just to test out its influence.
StarMia – That seems like a good compromise of changes, the forward spawns and catwalk changes should strengthen BLU’s ability to push without sacrificing too much from RED. Its very important that with all these changes that both teams feel like they are getting a fair deal with third, in this case that RED feels they haven’t been nerfed needlessly.
Also I think there is a bit of a misinterpretation of the “widening the ditch”. The ditch is not wider itself, the metal wall was receded, opening up more of the ditch width wise. The cart travels an identical distance to stock badwater on all points, as that was unaltered. The sniper sightline is also unaltered as the alteration is hidden on the opposite side from the medium health and ammo.
Popcorp – I agree that the fence should be altered, like I said above I’d hoped to have seen fewer roof holds and maybe more corner holds because of it, but maybe such holds will still be short term possible with an altered shorter fence. I don’t intend to make second strong, but maybe less of a death trap for RED to deal with. On the clipping on the catwalk shed, I don’t see too much harm in that. Only risk is it might be a powerful position for RED Soldier to spam into Boiler and drop on whatever is on the far side catwalk. The effectiveness might be tempered by how in the open it is though. I’m thinking of tossing that change into v8 to see how it plays out. Is there any chance that where you played has a STV? I’d love to see how the game went.
Just as a general gathering of opinion, how do people feel about the dispenser block. I always felt that while it encourages the use of the Disciplinary Action strategy, the speed lines an invisible Spy gets still single him out for focus fire. I always thought removing the dispenser block either via nobuild or the stair widening would improve the ability to have BLU coordination on 3rd more consistently in such an occasion when the Soldier and Spy are not both available to use the whip strategy.
If anyone has any gameplay at all, its greatly appreciated. The more I can see of the third point and how it plays in v7, the better I can tinker with it.
Don’t know if this has been covered but lowering the sill on the window on 3rd doesn’t nerf the sentry, if anything it’s a buff as you’ve removed some of that positions blind spots and given the engi more options as to what kind of sightlines his sentry can have.
Last edited by EmilioEstevez,
Quoted from EmilioEstevez
Don’t know if this has been covered but lowering the sill on the window on 3rd doesn’t nerf the sentry, if anything it’s a buff as you’ve removed some of that positions blind spots and given the engi more options as to what kind of sightlines his sentry can have.
True, and it also removed players being sneaky up in attic.
I have played the map a bit now, and I agree with Mia and Popcorp.
I like the work that has been done with spawns, gates and that sort of thing. However I don’t see the point in making a pro version of badwater, as it just isn’t nessecary. Badwater is a good payload map, that doesn’t need that kind of change. Sure 3rd point is in favour of the holding team, but the point isn’t impossible to push if you have any concept of teamwork. For example I don’t think the workaround of the dispenser block on C is nessecary. There is another way for spies to come up there, and if you just get teammates to help, its seriously not that big of an issue. There has just been too much made out of the C-nerf.
If you insist on making a pro version (which btw is really cool of you), keep the changes to the spawns and gates, the smaller tweaks (QoL changes) and the shed and walkway behind house on C. The rest should really stay as it is in my opinion.
Not sure if I can follow your argumentation, Toast. It has been well established that a huge amount of teams consider the defense on 3rd too strong. And the MUSA hold is, albeit not a gamebreaking one, an exploit. Many people know about a way to get their Spy up there, but it requires an disproportionate amount of effort (it’s far from impossible, of course) to circumvent this exploit.
So if there is a pro version of Badwater, why not do something about it?
why you are changing GOOD map, better do something with map like steel to make it actually fun to play for all classes
Quoted from phromelo
why you are changing GOOD map, better do something with map like steel to make it actually fun to play for all classes
Steel is absolutely perfect, what are you on about? @_@
Quoted from Pistolvania
[…]
Steel is absolutely perfect, what are you on about? @_@
he plays sniper
Quoted from Fuxx
[…]
he plays sniper
It’s my best sniper map by far
Quoted from Selek
. Many people know about a way to get their Spy up there, but it requires an disproportionate amount of effort (it’s far from impossible, of course) to circumvent this exploit.
Sooo basically train for an hour to learn that bhop/strafejump?
Quoted from olBaa
[…]
Sooo basically train for an hour to learn that bhop/strafejump?
you know nothing, jon snow
Last edited by aura,
Short feedback:
1st point – new spawn = more aggression on defense cos you can now spam point from spawn and go behind combo or flank on cart (from tunnel) and you also can change spawn after loosing 1st point and, basically, loose nothing. Don`t like this change, to much advantage to RED team with no balance.
2nd point – fence = looks pretty nice, like it.
3rd point – Love all changes, especially near windows room. But don`t understand what bigger room and wider window (in sentry position) changes… Still, dispenser on stair block spy. Anyways, it’s a best part of all changes, really cool.
Last – connector between 2 spawns = very good, love it.
Great job, but you really should think about RED spawn on 1st point it changes allot and not in good side.
Last edited by Klefsas,
Quoted from Klefsas
Short feedback:
1st point – new spawn = more aggression on defense cos you can now spam point from spawn and go behind combo or flank on cart (from tunnel) and you also can change spawn after loosing 1st point and, basically, loose nothing. Don`t like this change, to much advantage to RED team with no balance.
Great job, but you really should think about RED spawn on 1st point it changes allot and not in good side.
Thank you all for the feedback! There will likely be a v8 coming soon that will tone down some of the changes on 3rd, but will be primarily bugfixing the existing changes for further testing.
Bit of a misunderstanding Klefsas, the forward spawn on 1st is a BLU team spawn only, and it activates after 2nd is capped. RED team cannot enter that new spawn, and RED spawn is exactly where it always has been. So no worries about that!
Quoted from olBaa
[…]
Sooo basically train for an hour to learn that bhop/strafejump?
Even then, success isn’t guaranteed due to spam/personal failure/frame rate drops/other randomness. And all that just because of “just place a dispenser there and no Spy will pass”. So yes, I think it fits the definition of “disproportionate amount of effort” nicely :)
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