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pl_badwater_pro_v

Created 6th May 2015 @ 05:05

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lep

Currently: Version 12

Downloads will no longer be done through dropbox, and will instead be hosted on TF2maps. When a more final version is reached, a Steam Workshop version will be added.

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/pl_badwater_pro.962/

An album of the changes made can be found on the TF2maps download page.

Changes include:
– A new forward spawn location for BLU on capping B.
– Walls shifted to increase space in Under on the route to C.
– Alternate door into Boiler from BLU forward spawn. (Thanks Aero!)
– Stairs to the Engineer nest at C have had nobuild added.

– Lots of small quality of life changes to clipping and spawn positions

Changes for v7: – Back stairwell in RED spawn between upper and lower
– Barrels outside Lunchbox on C replaced with a shed
– One way shutter now nobuild until A is capped
– Kill trigger in RED forward doorway on B cap *should* be more consistent
– Lowered BLU forward spawn door to not stick through the ground

Changes for v8: – Back stairwell in REd spawn updated to prevent fall damage
– The Engineer Nest Window has returned, but has been lowered, granting sightlines to building Level 1 sentries and opening the sentry up to more angles in general.
– The fence on B has been brought closer to the wall to assist RED in defending the alley whilst cutting down sightlines from the hill on A
– Tons of small quality of life changes; clipping, hitboxes, lighting, prop fades, map holes. etc

Changes for v10:
– The one way door on 1st that RED could use has been returned to its original purpose as a locked gate that will only open after 1st is capped
– 3rd has had its layout fully returned to that of stock badwater, this includes; the removal of the back room to the Engineer nest, resizing the stairwell to the nest and removing the spare catwalk outside of “House”
– The staircase to the Engineer nest on 3rd now has nobuild
– A wooden support has been added to the balcony outside of the Engineer nest to provide BLU team with a direct route

Changes for v11;
-Lighting errors fixed

Changes for v12;
-reintroduced the one way gate from A to B roof
-removed the barricade from B alley
-a new staircase in Tires that leads to the spiral staircase on last point

A special thanks to UGC Kumori for collecting feedback and spurring this version’s creation!

Thanks for all the feedback coming out of the map’s time in play! I greatly appreciate all the PM’s, even the little stuff matters a lot!

Credit for this map is shared with Aero for letting me develop an alternate pl_badwater_pro with some of his changes included! This wouldn’t have gotten off the ground without his help.

While testing is primarily concerned with gameplay at the moment, map optimization took a hit during the revamp. If you or your teammates experience excessive framerate issues, large framerate drops etc. please mention where on the map, preferably with a screenshot and it will be pushed into priority.

Thanks a ton to whoever plays it, I’d be happy to take STV demos and POV demos for review, as well as screenshots of any issues you find.

Feedback is welcome!


Last edited by lep,

Spycy

TC.Express

Oh boy, no more “bad” respawns :D

LaMqTa

fenneks

Both links are not working for me. Could you please upload it somewhere else. Thanks! :)

edit: worked now lol


Last edited by LaMqTa,

Spriggan

I think, It’ll be better if you remove lower spawnroom in last point.
Because It’s totally shit and not useful for tactics.

Spycy

TC.Express

Quoted from Spriggan

I think, It’ll be better if you remove lower spawnroom in last point.
Because It’s totally shit and not useful for tactics.

It’s useful for engies that build sentries on the lower ground, behind the fence, and for whoever needs ammo and heals fast.

prof

I actually really like the look of these changes. Nice work!

Pls no.

Popcorp

Played it yesterday, didn’t like it

First of all Rocks on 1st point, due to De-compiling and Re-compiling Valve map, map becomes unstable in terms of Fps.

Huge fence on 2nd makes that point really chokey and boring for Sniper, I don’t understand the reason behind that fence, sure you’re nerfing Sniper’s dominance on 2nd, but there is a Tunnel that players can go through if they want to avoid Sniper sightline, Tunnel and Cliff paths consume the same amount of time, so if players got constantly killed by Sniper on 2nd, they could just take a tunnel path, which is Sniper-safe.

3rd Sentry hold is still Overpowered, all you need is Spy awareness and that’s it, it’s not easier to take down sentry.

Last is unchanged so nothing to say there.

I still and always going to prefer Current Badwater version, it’s less broken and balanced anyway, as well as it is the most played Highlander map and no changes are needed, because people find it fun. Making a pro version just splits people’s opinion about the map which will result in half of the players hating it.

SleightSoda

Let me preface this by saying this is literally the first negative reaction I’ve read out of many, many positive reactions.

Quoted from Popcorp

Played it yesterday, didn’t like it

First of all Rocks on 1st point, due to De-compiling and Re-compiling Valve map, map becomes unstable in terms of Fps.

In the original post leprecan mentions that due to the decompiling process the map will be broken in some places. This map is not a final version and he intends to fix these (he even said in the original post he would shift these issues to priority when they are pointed out to him). For this reason I don’t think this complaint is valid as a criticism against the concept itself, but it is helpful feedback he can use to improve the map! :)

Quoted from Popcorp

Huge fence on 2nd makes that point really chokey and boring for Sniper, I don’t understand the reason behind that fence, sure you’re nerfing Sniper’s dominance on 2nd, but there is a Tunnel that players can go through if they want to avoid Sniper sightline, Tunnel and Cliff paths consume the same amount of time, so if players got constantly killed by Sniper on 2nd, they could just take a tunnel path, which is Sniper-safe.

You’re looking at this change from the wrong perspective. The change isn’t to help BLU players pushing into second, but to help RED players retreating from second. When retreating from the roof hold, the RED team has to cross the choke/alleyway, and this fence allows them to do so a little safer.

Quoted from Popcorp

3rd Sentry hold is still Overpowered, all you need is Spy awareness and that’s it, it’s not easier to take down sentry.

“It’s not easier to take down the sentry” is an objectively false statement. The widened window makes projectiles more consistent and opens up angles to fire at the sentry with hitscan weapons (sniper, minigun). Every engineer who has played this, even those who had a dedicated pyro watching for spies, would disagree with you here.

You’re also completely overlooking the alternative house push added by the catwalk, the improved push from under, and the new forward spawn BLU gets when they cap second, which combined are arguably the more significant half of the changes to third.

Quoted from Popcorp

I still and always going to prefer Current Badwater version, it’s less broken and balanced anyway, as well as it is the most played Highlander map and no changes are needed, because people find it fun. Making a pro version just splits people’s opinion about the map which will result in half of the players hating it.

There’s a couple interesting things to note here. First “I still and always going to prefer current Badwater” (I think you mean “am always” here)- this tells us your feedback holds little value, as nothing can be done to change your mind. “it’s less broken and balanced” (I think you mean “more balanced” here) – in a previous quote you said third was “still” overpowered meaning you don’t think the map is inherently balanced. Whether or not the third changes address the issues to your liking, you must concede they are an improvement, no matter how negligible.

Saying a map doesn’t need changes because it’s fun is why maps like 2Fort and Dustbowl are so popular.

The reason a pro version of the map was created was to address the issues to the map that got it removed from last season’s UGC rotation – the first time it wasn’t played in that league, if I’m not mistaken. The platinum teams decided that the strength of third point along with the relative weakness of the previous two points made the map weak enough to replace it with other payload maps (such as Borneo and Swiftwater).

So badwater pro isn’t going to cause a split in people’s opinions; it was designed to address a split that had already formed and had real consequences to the game.


Last edited by SleightSoda,

ondkaja

Do Drzky

What’s the purpose of the maintenace area on third point? Seems to be that it just makes holding the balc/stairs as an attacking soldier less important and harder to pressure engineer because of easier rotates, another room to check for hiders and additional room for the defenders to dodge.

lep

Quoted from ondkaja

What’s the purpose of the maintenace area on third point? Seems to be that it just makes holding the balc/stairs as an attacking soldier less important and harder to pressure engineer because of easier rotates, another room to check for hiders and additional room for the defenders to dodge.

I intend to weaken the hold on third for the RED Engineer but additionally not make it impossible to escape or still utilize. The maintenance room was added for RED team’s convenience to be able to route to the Engineer with less difficulty to partially make up for how much more exposed and spy friendly the nest is. That the room can be hidden in is a consequence, but I hope to see more of the map in play before the decision on whether its worth keeping or not.

Popcorp

Too much text incoming

There are always going to be people complaining about specific points on every pl map, each map has its point, where pushing seems impossible, Badwater – 3rd, Upward – Last, Borneo – 3rd, Barnblitz – Last, Swiftwater – 2nd and Last

My enmity towards Pro version of Badwater can be described easily, indolence to learn how to coordinate with your team and failure to invent new strategies. Chessclub used a good and new strat on Badwater 3rd, which was Soldier whiping Spy in Boiler room and getting him (via jumping) onto a balcony, Engineer’s dispenser usually blocks stairs on 3rd to prevent Spy from coming upstairs, resulting in absence of a need to watch for a Spy. If Sentry is a problem, then have a Soldier with a Cow Mangler to Zap the sentry, then your team takes it down.

You’re looking at this change from the wrong perspective. The change isn’t to help BLU players pushing into second, but to help RED players retreating from second. When retreating from the roof hold, the RED team has to cross the choke/alleyway, and this fence allows them to do so a little safer.

Then why is the fence so huge? Sniper is not 1000 meters tall, as far as I remember, this change was directed to Sniper controlling that area way too easily.

The reason a pro version of the map was created was to address the issues to the map that got it removed from last season’s UGC rotation – the first time it wasn’t played in that league, if I’m not mistaken. The platinum teams decided that the strength of third point along with the relative weakness of the previous two points made the map weak enough to replace it with other payload maps (such as Borneo and Swiftwater).

Season 11 and 12 had Bad & Swiftwater and Borneo, then after Season 12 they decided to remove Swiftwater for the next 2 seasons, meaning that Badwater was superior to Swiftwater, but then, out of nowhere they decided to remove Badwater and as you said “made the map weak enough to replace it”, how can they justify the removal of Swiftwater for Season 13 and 14 then? Was Badwater 3rd back then magically not Overpowered for them?

And to justify this claim “relative weakness of the previous two points made the map weak enough to replace it with other payload maps”, of course, 1st point on every Pl map always favors Blu side, due to closer and shorter respawn times, 2nd point is “weak” because 3rd point is “strong”, by defending 2nd you’re risking to lose a “strong” 3rd hold, that’s the reason why they say that previous 2 points are weak because Blu always has advantage on 1st and 2nd is because no one even tries to defend it, thus giving it a status “Weak”.

“It’s not easier to take down the sentry” is an objectively false statement. The widened window makes projectiles more consistent and opens up angles to fire at the sentry with hitscan weapons (sniper, minigun). Every engineer who has played this, even those who had a dedicated pyro watching for spies, would disagree with you here.

And you think that will force Engineers to invent new Sentry spot? Sadly, no, the only 3 Sentry holds I’ve ever seen (in competitive matches) being used, are Window, Balcony and near big Ammo Pack. Engineer relies on his team, if enemies are freely spamming the sentry while Engie tirelessly trying to repair it and at the same time check for Spy, then team is doing something wrong by not supporting him, “oh you eat all the spam and we relax back here”, so in my opinion, widened window won’t change anything, as long as your team provides a support to your Engineer, the spot is as good as in the Original Version.

ETF2L had Badwater for 8 seasons in a row, there were 0 to small amount of complaints about the 3rd or any points, people had more complaints towards pl_barnblitz_pro rather than Badwater, yet map is still there and being played, despite numerous changes, Last point on Barnblitz is still hard to push, meanwhile the amount of complaints towards Badwater is nominal.

If ETF2L is planning to put this “pro aka lets nerf 3rd” version of the map into a Future season(s), then voting is required, just like with the upcoming Season 21.


Last edited by Popcorp,

I kinda feel the meta on how to play badwater has always changed over time. Which if you ask me is a good feature, it means it is alive and well. However while the pro version look like an alternative badwater for a bit of fresh air, it is kinda unecessary.

lep

To Popcorp, that there are equivalent complaints of other map’s hard holds doesn’t take into account that several of those edited and restructured said hard holds to be weaker. Barnblitz_pro last has a lovely new flank, borneo’s third went through multiple massive restructurings for new blindspots for BLU to use. People complained about these points, and they were reevaluated. However, none of that matters because we aren’t talking about barnblitz or borneo, just badwater.

This ties into what I’m doing here, all of these changes are part of a work in progress, as you said in regards to the sniper fence on second, some of the changes may feel unnecessary. What better way to see what needs including and excluding than testing a pro version? I’d be perfectly happy to release a pro version with no changes except bug fixes, if that is what people think the map needs.

Map rotations are usually deigned by preference of what is to be played. For a couple seasons as you said swiftwater took precedence, however, as with most custom maps cycled in, it is usually only around for a few seasons like barnblitz_pro in NA. badwater remained a standby. However, it wasn’t included because people wanted change. That desire partly stems from how much it was played prior and a desire for different maps to see the light of day. That there was a lull in gameplay on badwater in NA provides an opportunity to see if changes to the map would make it more consistently interesting or if all it needs is to fix nitpicks people had with poor clipping or random spawns.

Your point that first and second are weak because third is strong is valid, but it doesn’t make for very entertaining gameplay on these first two points. As you said, first should always be a throwaway, however second must also be sacrificed for a good hold on third. Half of the map is underutilized by both teams so that third can be strong. Maybe this is all badwater ever needs to be, but only testing these changes will tell if the result is worse, equivalent or better.

The widened and taller window was never meant to force Engineer’s to adopt a new sentry spot, as it still remains the most consistent spot. As you pointed out, good teamwork and a competent Engi still make the new Engineer nest consistent, but as you said, there must be more support from the rest of the RED team.

Of course ETF2L doesn’t have to adopt this version of badwater. This is a map in testing, to see if it needs these changes. Would people still appreciate the stairway link between Upper and Lower spawn even if all the 1st, 2nd and 3rd point changes were removed? Would people like having the new forward spawn with longer spawntimes if only to cut down on travel downtime? If stock badwater is fine for ETF2L, thats fine by me, but you don’t need to feel threatened by this map’s existence. If testing works out and the map is to everyone’s liking, it can be voted in, if not, then don’t. You don’t have to feel obligated to vote for this just because its got “_pro” in its name.

If you choose to play the map though, then please provide as specific feedback as possible. I want to hear your opinions on badwater because you enjoy it and understand why you enjoy it.
In your original post, you mentioned a problem with the huge sniper fence, which you only elaborated on later as a problem with its height rather than just its existence that you feel unfairly changes Sniper on B. However prior to your second post I wasn’t sure if you meant that the fence should not exist at all or if it should be altered. For your feedback on lowered framerates on 1st, where exactly? Can you provide a screenshot of the area or is it a general lowering?

Hihi. I really like some elements, like the forward Blu spawn when second point caps, which will place less importance on a Blu teleporter and also mean that a post-uber re-push for spawners will be actually viable because the distance between spawn and the point won’t negate the faster respawn times that Blu would usually take advantages of post-exchange.

I’m pretty indifferent to the additional boiler exit on the last Blu spawn, but it can’t hurt so why not.

I love the changes to Red last spawn, it’s always annoying to keep switching your loadout on the hope you get the top spawn because the lower spawn is being camped.

Quoted from ondkaja

What’s the purpose of the maintenace area on third point? Seems to be that it just makes holding the balc/stairs as an attacking soldier less important and harder to pressure engineer because of easier rotates, another room to check for hiders and additional room for the defenders to dodge.

I agree with this point that OndKaja made, things like the extra room up top is unnecessary and I understand that it’s meant to make it easier to pressure the Red engineer, but if an uncontested Blu soldier/demo is up there anyways, the engineer and the sentry should hypothetically be on its way down, the extra room would only really be used by red team (there isn’t really a reason for Blu team to be up there, once they’ve capped point 3), so if anything, it’ll do the opposite of it’s expectation.

Another thing I disagree with is widening the ditch on third, while there is the benefit of being spammed out less whilst pushing; there is also the disadvantage of having further to push the cart + extending the Red Sniper sightline onto the medium health/large ammo pack. By widening the gap and distance, you are also increasing the Red Sniper presence on third, which is already considerable as it is.

The last thing I disagree with is the widening of the Engineer window and the stairs leading up to the top (and therefore stopping dispenser blockage of the stairs) but this is only because I feel that by adding extra bridge room behind the house and allowing Blu team to navigate between the left-side Boiler and right-side a lot more easily, whilst also giving Blu a safe dispenser spot/temporary base and moving them out of spam and sniper sightlines (with the extra bridge space) means that third point would already be significantly easier to push. Making the Sentry open and spammable whilst widening access to the sentry base will just mean the sentry will be moved onto the tracks, around the corner and can only cover the point itself and not the tracks as well. Basically, it will completely change the Badwater meta and place a lot less importance on holding third because it’s so easy to push.

I understand why you want to make these changes on third, it’s because it so darn hard to push. The current general Badwater meta is: hard hold point 1 > soft hold point 2 to delay for Red engie setup > hard hold point 3 > obvs hard hold point 4 because its the last point. However, this is not only because point 3 can we so well-held if properly set up, it’s because soft-holding point 1 so you can retreat to a strong hold on point 2 is so unreliable. Blu combo can often make use of flanks being down on point 1 to uber from the tunnel exit and cut the red team combo + engie from escape to the roof, therefore point 1 does rely on Red team out-dming Blu team to make it safely onto roof.

You’re also trying to make point 2 a stronger/more viable hold by adding the extra passage onto roof and adding the chainlink fence to 2nd. I don’t think you should do this because by adding the fence, you are allowing red team to push and spam onto the point easier and block the cart from being capped because it allows a lot of coverage for red team from spam and snipers (and how close the point is to Red spawn should be taken into account, because Red could easily block the point with respawners again and not be pressured out and the whole point of Blu having shorter respawn timers is to be able to push post-exchange more easily). It places a lot more importance for Blu team to take roof to be able to cap the point, and considering that roof is hard to push when there is the full setup from Red team there, because height advantage + easily controlled chokepoints of the two stairs, will only make point 2 hell-ish to attack.

TL;DR: Keep the changes to all the spawns, keep the changes to the bridge on point 3 (including the catwalk shed), leave everything else like the original badwater. This is because you overkilled the point 3 nerf: you have to choose between buffing Blu team’s ability to push and nerfing Red team’s ability to hold. Doing both will make the Badwater meta too unstable because point 2 will never be a reliable strong hold due to how unpredictable retreating from point 1 is (and always will be simply because of the way Valve poisitioned the cliff and tunnel on point 1). By giving Blu team more mobility and a place of cover on point 3 (and a closer spawn), you aren’t directly changing the nature of the map because it would still rely (as it should) on player ability and teamwork to push the point, whereas nerfing the engie nest up top will almost definitely change how third point is held. Aside from third, which is slightly unbalanced towards Red, Badwater is a pretty solid HL map and a pro version seems a tad unnecessary.


Last edited by Dandere,

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