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Created 30th June 2012 @ 12:31
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Quoted from AcidReniX
But on the other hand, valve has listened to the community on a number of unlocks.
The equaliser and direct hit were both ideas that top level competitive players came up with. The idea was simple.
At the time, the soldier was considered underpowered. To fix this, competitive players suggested the following.
Players asked for a reward for getting airshots. Valve introduced the direct hit, with an airshot minicrit. Yes, it wasn’t exactly how people had imagined the weapon to be, but valve thought that they would make it easier to get airshots, but have a massive draw back in regards to splash damage.
Players asked for the soldier to have an escape route. They literally complained that scouts could run in, shoot people up, and then just jump away without a care in the world. Once a soldier was in the fight, they had to stay there. Someone suggested that the soldier has a melee weapon that makes them run faster when their health is lower. Valve came up with the drawbacks for it (not allowed to be healed). This again got shunned after release.
Valve fixed the FaN and Natasha based off competitive player’s feedback. Both still banned afterwards.
It’s no wonder valve will never listen to the competitive community again, regarding unlocks. They made a very valid attempt to do so and got shunned.
What? The Equalizer was suggested by two different non-comp players on the forums, I remember beacause I read them both. I think it was more: lower health = more dmg part, but it had nothing to do with comp.
As for the others, any threads or logs?
Quoted from AcidReniX
But on the other hand, valve has listened to the community on a number of unlocks.
The equaliser and direct hit were both ideas that top level competitive players came up with. The idea was simple.
The idea for the Equaliser came from SPUF, the big difference being it didn’t increase speed, only damage (or the other way around, can’t remember which one anymore). Not sure about the DH. It was obviously meant to be a weapon for people with top-notch aim though.
Quoted from AcidReniX
At the time, the soldier was considered underpowered. To fix this, competitive players suggested the following.
Players asked for a reward for getting airshots. Valve introduced the direct hit, with an airshot minicrit. Yes, it wasn’t exactly how people had imagined the weapon to be, but valve thought that they would make it easier to get airshots, but have a massive draw back in regards to splash damage.
Players asked for the soldier to have an escape route. They literally complained that scouts could run in, shoot people up, and then just jump away without a care in the world. Once a soldier was in the fight, they had to stay there. Someone suggested that the soldier has a melee weapon that makes them run faster when their health is lower. Valve came up with the drawbacks for it (not allowed to be healed). This again got shunned after release.
Valve fixed the FaN and Natasha based off competitive player’s feedback. Both still banned afterwards.
It’s no wonder valve will never listen to the competitive community again, regarding unlocks. They made a very valid attempt to do so and got shunned.
FaN and Natascha were not “fixed”. The removed the immobilising effect on the FaN – which FAR more people complained about, not just comp and Natascha didn’t get changed properly until much, much later. Initially a bugfix (it didn’t slow the proper amount), then they changed the slowdown again because the majority of the community complained about it.
The beta I’m referring to was done before both of those, and had mostly constructive feedback. Not whining or us ignoring the results from it.
I do agree that classes are also a big deal. One reason I have mentioned CL1 for a long time is to add some variety, and make every class viable. Simply put, the current competitive scene probably wouldn’t complain _that much_ if Pyro, Heavy, Engineer, Spy and Sniper were all banned from competitive play. How much would it have an effect on the current 6v6 game if they were banned? I’m sure these classes are probably the most popular on public servers, so can we get these into the competitive game somehow, rather than have them be occasional situation-based classes (you can’t really recruit one of these into your team)?
The only way to do that, is either to add unlocks (which adds a slight possibility of the classes becoming more useful, but probably not), or to force class limits where the ‘better classes’ are restricted, forcing people to use an alternative.
Quoted from AcidReniX
I do agree that classes are also a big deal. One reason I have mentioned CL1 for a long time is to add some variety, and make every class viable. Simply put, the current competitive scene probably wouldn’t complain _that much_ if Pyro, Heavy, Engineer, Spy and Sniper were all banned from competitive play. How much would it have an effect on the current 6v6 game if they were banned? I’m sure these classes are probably the most popular on public servers, so can we get these into the competitive game somehow, rather than have them be occasional situation-based classes (you can’t really recruit one of these into your team)?
The only way to do that, is either to add unlocks (which adds a slight possibility of the classes becoming more useful, but probably not), or to force class limits where the ‘better classes’ are restricted, forcing people to use an alternative.
What? Who wouldn’t complain? I love to off-class, it is one of my favorite parts of TF2, but it is the fact it is off-classing that makes it good. All CL 1 does is change the standard to sniper heavy + vanilla.
It would also be annoying as fuck, those classes you mentioned are there to break stalemates or defend a point, it is the reason why TF2 is awesome, we have classes that are situationally needed.
The way is not to change our rules, but help educate others on the issue. I find once people have one good experience of comp, they tend not to care about CL’s or unlocks. That is why I push for the newbie mixes so hard.
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
[…]
FaN and Natascha were not “fixed”. The removed the immobilising effect on the FaN – which FAR more people complained about, not just comp and Natascha didn’t get changed properly until much, much later. Initially a bugfix (it didn’t slow the proper amount), then they changed the slowdown again because the majority of the community complained about it.
The point that I was trying to make, was that at the time, certain unlocks were allowed. The FaN got banned due to complaints, and the vast majority of the complaints were because it had a ‘stun’ effect to it. Once that was removed, it wasn’t reconsidered for an unban, because people ‘found it annoying’. That stun effect had very little effect on public servers. Valve made the change for the competitive community, who then ignored the change. Natashi would slow players down if a single bullet hit at any range. That was addressed. Competitive players decided that ‘slow downs and stuns (sandman) have no place in competitive TF2’, and left it banned. People only look at what effects them, and not what the team is sacrificing to have these additions. I loved it when a team ran a natasha heavy. I’d get ours to go for a sasha heavy and it was an instant win. Others just saw a new way that they would get killed, didn’t like it, and requested a ban. Anyway, that’s pushing a bit off topic.
You brought up GRU earlier too. That was a competitive player’s suggestion in the first Beta. The idea was to get heavys to mid quicker to make the class a viable strategy. Problem was, once the heavy got to mid quicker, and became a viable strategy, people realised how much they hate fighting against heavys, and so it was banned.
Quoted from AcidReniX
[…]
The point that I was trying to make, was that at the time, certain unlocks were allowed. The FaN got banned due to complaints, and the vast majority of the complaints were because it had a ‘stun’ effect to it. Once that was removed, it wasn’t reconsidered for an unban, because people ‘found it annoying’. That stun effect had very little effect on public servers. Valve made the change for the competitive community, who then ignored the change. Natashi would slow players down if a single bullet hit at any range. That was addressed. Competitive players decided that ‘slow downs and stuns (sandman) have no place in competitive TF2’, and left it banned. People only look at what effects them, and not what the team is sacrificing to have these additions. I loved it when a team ran a natasha heavy. I’d get ours to go for a sasha heavy and it was an instant win. Others just saw a new way that they would get killed, didn’t like it, and requested a ban. Anyway, that’s pushing a bit off topic.
I know for a fact Natascha was one of the most raged about things @ SPUF at the time (probably *the* most raged about thing), and I always saw people complain about it ingame as well. We were not the only ones complaining about Natascha – or the FaN. Just because we’re organised on this forum doesn’t mean we’re the only ones to complain about things.
Quoted from AcidReniX
You brought up GRU earlier too. That was a competitive player’s suggestion in the first Beta. The idea was to get heavys to mid quicker to make the class a viable strategy. Problem was, once the heavy got to mid quicker, and became a viable strategy, people realised how much they hate fighting against heavys, and so it was banned.
It was, and 3 or 4 different versions were tried in the beta. Eventually they got one that the people participating in the beta were happy with, and valve completely ignored it and implemented a completely different version in the actual game. One that was never tried in the beta.
edit: I agree with crashsite (wtf) in that I would fucking rage if Pyro/Engi/Heavy/Spy would get removed entirely. I love offclassing, and it’s the fact they are unorthodox tactics that makes it so much fun to do.
Last edited by Buffalo Bill,
What is the argument we are having again?
Cos it seems to be: comp players shouldn’t be involved with making unlocks.
Also fuck you Bill <3
Last edited by CrashSite,
Quoted from CrashSite
[…]
What? Who wouldn’t complain? I love to off-class, it is one of my favorite parts of TF2, but it is the fact it is off-classing that makes it good. All CL 1 does is change the standard to sniper heavy + vanilla.
Heavy would probably feature most of the time yeah, but the last class probably isn’t going to be just a sniper. Pyros and spies would feature quite prominently, and if unlocks were allowed, you might find mini sentries incredibly useful. The great thing about this setup, is that you have a utililty player… a full time off class that can swing the traditional fights. There’s no room for this player in the regular 6v6 game except for very specific scenarios. Spy and sniper play often gets the loudest cheers at events, because it’s entertaining to watch, and both need a high level of skill to be effective. I think it would be a good thing!
It would also be annoying as fuck, those classes you mentioned are there to break stalemates or defend a point, it is the reason why TF2 is awesome, we have classes that are situationally needed.
The way is not to change our rules, but help educate others on the issue. I find once people have one good experience of comp, they tend not to care about CL’s or unlocks. That is why I push for the newbie mixes so hard.
You’re right. It would be annoying as fuck, because everyone is used to playing competitive TF2 in a single way. Change is bad right? So then we expect the public players to change, to come over and play competitive TF2.
Still, I don’t think those classes are there to break stalemates or defend a point (ok, maybe engineer is). If you ask valve what they think the role of the other 5 classes in the game are, I doubt they would say that they are just meant to be side classes that are used situationally. The problem is that, the 4 classes are so good in a 6v6 game (high mobillity, high damage output, good sustain), that there is very little room for a class that isn’t so, generally good. Because we allow two scouts and soldiers, it’s difficult to find a combination that can compete against that.
Oh God, I don’t know if I want to take any of the sides anymore. I’d love to give you some constructive opinion on the matter, but this is going nowhere again.
Quoted from freshmeatt
Oh God, I don’t know if I want to take any of the sides anymore. I’d love to give you some constructive opinion on the matter, but this is going nowhere again.
welcome to the thread about unlocks LOL
Had a little idea, literally just came into my head so give it a chance ;p
Maybe we could get a couple 32 slot pub servers, you know ETF2L #1, ETF2L #2 etc. If we could get a couple comp players who go on there a few times a day and try and get people to join etf2l, perhaps make a steam group for the servers like etf2l pub group or something, make a little community like crashsite was saying. Obviously the comp people who go on the pub server have to be people who don’t brag about their skills or put other people down for being pubbers (I know, I’ve done it in the past and I feel like a dick for it) Just don’t mention your div. Don’t do it. Anyways if we could get a couple people around here to volunteer, said comper can tell the pubber to add the person who will show them etf2l, a little bit of the rules, making a recruitment post and all that lark. I for one would be happy to show a couple people around the etf2l so to speak, and have done.
I know it sounds like just a couple people here and there, but I suppose that’s not the point of the entire thing, it’s kind of to show pubbers that we’re not all elitist dicks and we want to get involved with the community too. Perhaps a boost in popularity when people who play pub see that the comp scene isn’t such a massive step from pub. Arx nailed it on the head, cs:s pub is much the same as comp except for organisation levels, if a pubber took a sudden interest in the competitive scene, then they realise the classes are limited, I can’t use any of my weapons etc they’re not gonna be encouraged to start playing are they?
Also, stop being immature idiots. Most of you are adults. It’s a video game and you get angry when someone kills you with a huntsman. A lot of peoples problems seems to be they LET themselves get annoyed more than they should over an unlock, just chill, it’s a game, they’re not as bad as you think. (Except for a few ;o)
Edit: also stop arguing back and forth, most of these walls of texts are I think unlocks should be allowed or I don’t think unlocks should be allowed, let’s focus on finding a solution?
Last edited by Phrozen,
Quoted from AcidReniX
[…]
Heavy would probably feature most of the time yeah, but the last class probably isn’t going to be just a sniper. Pyros and spies would feature quite prominently, and if unlocks were allowed, you might find mini sentries incredibly useful. The great thing about this setup, is that you have a utililty player… a full time off class that can swing the traditional fights. There’s no room for this player in the regular 6v6 game except for very specific scenarios. Spy and sniper play often gets the loudest cheers at events, because it’s entertaining to watch, and both need a high level of skill to be effective. I think it would be a good thing!
[…]
You’re right. It would be annoying as fuck, because everyone is used to playing competitive TF2 in a single way. Change is bad right? So then we expect the public players to change, to come over and play competitive TF2.
Still, I don’t think those classes are there to break stalemates or defend a point (ok, maybe engineer is). If you ask valve what they think the role of the other 5 classes in the game are, I doubt they would say that they are just meant to be side classes that are used situationally. The problem is that, the 4 classes are so good in a 6v6 game (high mobillity, high damage output, good sustain), that there is very little room for a class that isn’t so, generally good. Because we allow two scouts and soldiers, it’s difficult to find a combination that can compete against that.
Why would I want a fulltime offclass? Pyro is incredibly situational due to being very range-limited, Sniper gets taken down by basically anything that comes close unless the Sniper is REALLY good and gets a bit lucky with his shot, Spy relies on the enemy not knowing he’s there and is a waste of a player if you can’t get close enough to backstab and Engineer is so Sentry-reliant the game slows to a crawl if you try and use him more often than just defending last point (Gunslinger isn’t balanced, even the Americans banned that thing). Heavy is the only one that’s semi-viable, and even then slows the game to a crawl + denies both teams the ability to quickly take a height advantage.
With CL 1 on everything it just means capping quickly is impossible if your Scout is dead and defending your medic properly without sacrificing speed is impossible if your Soldier is dead as well as having someone be a waste of a slot half the time or more since he’s forced to play an offclass instead of something that is actually NEEDED at that moment.
As for the classes being situational, listen to the developer commentary.
15. The Pyro
[Marc Scaparro] The Pyro is designed to be the best short-range combat class, aimed at encouraging players to adopt an ambush style of play. To achieve this, we made the Pyro vulnerable in the open, which forces players to seek out enclosed areas and doorways. To add to the Pyro’s short range lethality, we made the Flamethrower effects visually noisy, which helps disorient opponents long enough for the flames to finish them off.
16. The Spy
[Matt Boone] The Spy is designed for players who want to outsmart their opponents. At a high level, his gameplay flow is to infiltrate the enemy team, move around while disguised, and use his instant-kill backstab to take out key enemies, usually Snipers, Engineers, and Medics. His invisibility Cloak is designed to help him in two key situations. The first is in getting past the frontline, where players are most vigilant against enemies and most suspicious of friends not heading in the right direction. The second is in escaping from enemies who have seen through his disguise while he’s in enemy territory. His Electro Sapper was designed to allow him to easily take out unattended enemy sentryguns, forcing enemy Engineers to keep a close eye on their buildings.
Heavy/Engineer are mentioned as being for people who can’t twitch aim and thus rely on positioning, being slow but steady (Heavy) and to be used together with his Sentry (Engineer).
Last edited by Buffalo Bill,
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
[…]
Why would I want a fulltime offclass? Pyro is incredibly situational due to being very range-limited, Sniper gets taken down by basically anything that comes close unless the Sniper is REALLY good and gets a bit lucky with his shot, Spy relies on the enemy not knowing he’s there and is a waste of a player if you can’t get close enough to backstab and Engineer is so Sentry-reliant the game slows to a crawl if you try and use him more often than just defending last point (Gunslinger isn’t balanced, even the Americans banned that thing). Heavy is the only one that’s semi-viable, and even then slows the game to a crawl + denies both teams the ability to quickly take a height advantage.
With CL 1 on everything it just means capping quickly is impossible if your Scout is dead and defending your medic properly without sacrificing speed is impossible if your Soldier is dead as well as having someone be a waste of a slot half the time or more since he’s forced to play an offclass instead of something that is actually NEEDED at that moment.
As for the classes being situational, listen to the developer commentary.
15. The Pyro
[Marc Scaparro] The Pyro is designed to be the best short-range combat class, aimed at encouraging players to adopt an ambush style of play. To achieve this, we made the Pyro vulnerable in the open, which forces players to seek out enclosed areas and doorways. To add to the Pyro’s short range lethality, we made the Flamethrower effects visually noisy, which helps disorient opponents long enough for the flames to finish them off.16. The Spy
[Matt Boone] The Spy is designed for players who want to outsmart their opponents. At a high level, his gameplay flow is to infiltrate the enemy team, move around while disguised, and use his instant-kill backstab to take out key enemies, usually Snipers, Engineers, and Medics. His invisibility Cloak is designed to help him in two key situations. The first is in getting past the frontline, where players are most vigilant against enemies and most suspicious of friends not heading in the right direction. The second is in escaping from enemies who have seen through his disguise while he’s in enemy territory. His Electro Sapper was designed to allow him to easily take out unattended enemy sentryguns, forcing enemy Engineers to keep a close eye on their buildings.Heavy/Engineer are mentioned as being for people who can’t twitch aim and thus rely on positioning, being slow but steady (Heavy) and to be used together with his Sentry (Engineer).
Firstly, I referred to them as off-classes, because that’s what they currently are used for. I wouldn’t see them as running a full time ‘offclass’ if CL1 was in place. I’d see it as a potential for a full time main class.
Secondly, have you seen what valve says about the other classes? Do they mention that they are not meant to be situational, but the core of the game? The scout description implies that he should be good at ambushing, like the pyro, and great at capturing objectives.
The thing is, I get that you’re trying to imply that forcing players to run a certain class, when it’s not needed is a bad thing, but we already do that by enforcing demoman limits, and medic limits. Ideally I’m sure teams would be most effective running a combination, probably with a couple of medics, a couple of demomen etc… But no.. instead, we are forcing players to play a class that isn’t needed… for the enjoyment level of the game (more diversity, less spam, more focus). That’s essentially what CL1 would also be suggesting. The difference is, that certain players in this community have their own ideas on what makes the game better, or more fun, while others have their own opinions.
Some people would like to see the game, slowed down a little bit… have a bit more tactical play involved. Not me personally… I generally enjoy a faster paced game over a slower one, but I’m just saying, the competitive community has already shaped the game to be like what they wanted to play, rather than using the most ‘powerful’ strategies. Changing the class limits or unlocks, would essentially be doing exactly the same thing. Your team setup will not be as powerful, but it could (or not) work out to be a better, more popular game, in the opinions of the _majority_, while also not alienating the public community.
The top of your post also read, “If your scout is dead…”. All this means, is rather than teams being careless with their players, they might find that suddenly, certain players in different areas of the map have more importance than others, and so therefore you can’t go in suicidally with those classes. If anything, that promotes a higher level of skill and intelligence to be required in order to be successful.
Also for the record. I know CL1 is never going to happen. But it’s just debating. I’m not pushing for it to become a thing, neither am I pushing for unlocks to be added to the league (I’ve done all that before, now I actually think it should be left as it is until the game literally starts dying at a rapid speed).
Wouldn’t mind seeing a side league with that setup though, just from a few willing teams, to see how the game plays out.
How about:
Start with a big cup where unlocks are allowed. The goal would be one unlock per slot for each class (Bonk, Boston Basher, Gunboats, ambassador,…) The unlocks itself should be picked very carefully, weapons like the GRU, FaN or degreaser could change the way the class is played in 6s right now too much. The unlocks should just give a little bit of a variation. Class Limits stay the same, the standart line-up for everyone should stay the same. The maps played should be versatile, like badlands, granary, gravel, ashville, turbine, etc
If the cup succeeds, make the next season like the cup, as an off-season. You can still run 2 old-school seasons per year, +the off-season for everyone who gets tired of the same maps, same weapons, strats, etc.
Won’t happen anyway but would make me very happy :>
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