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Pickups: Feature requests

Created 6th July 2009 @ 19:42

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Akasazh

THG
HL

Quoted from Archy

Ill fill u guys in on a little trick -> I don’t know why u insist so much on playing with ‘higher’ players anyway, u can learn the same and probably more by just watching those games on stv… let them play and just enjoy specing.

No theres nothing you learn better when doing it then watching it done or else very many lardasses would be pro soccer players. You need the feel, you need the comms and you need to fail (yes learning=failing). By having a cap in pickups the learning curve is capped aswell. Its a shame such tough rules are necessary to hold out the dipshits that don’t take a thing seriously. Then again if the original rules in pu2 where enforced (non-communicating player gets a kick AND the person who invited him) pu2 wouldnt have been such a mess. (i must say in my honest opinion even in the current pool of div3+ players there’s folks who can sabotage the level of play and be dickheads and ruin the game for most (div3 doesnt mean mentally mature whatsoever)

Im sure a general cleanup for pu2 was needed, I fear that a general kick of -div3 will not 1. weed out all the dickweeds per sé 2. Make for a good environment for folks to level up their tf2 experience in. It would be the case if div -9000 – div 4 where nutcases and div 3-1 where seriousface. Both are untrue. I plea for looser rules and firmer moderation openness too feedback and willingness to learn should be the determining factor for acces to higher level pickups and the punishment of receiving a ban should feel like relegation from div1 to pub (this would quite well be possible for relegation of pu2 to pu1 means practically that)

tl/dr already perfect moderation is as true as perfect seriousness. Good moderation over elitism imho. I liked when the brief offlineness of pu2 meant that some pros where playing pu1 because higher players conjure some respect that is absent when it’s all just kids playing in the sandbox.

+1 to Akasazh

In my opinion a trialling system would be nice. For example a player outside div 1-2-3 gets invited. He can then play one pickup. After the pickup it is up to his team or an admin, to decide whether he is good enough. Sort of like the invite pickup

Quoted from Koeitje

[…]

Invite was totally inactive (like 2 pickups every 2 months). With the addition of div3 players there is a good player base for good games. Everybody knows that the best pug2 games were in the middle of the night and were mid+ pugs.

Then remake that instead of kicking people out of pu2 unnecessary. A cleanup was in order for pu2 yes, but this was shortsighted and uncalled for.

And you have to ask yourself: if Invite pickup died, despite only allowing Div2/1 players, what caused it? Cause it will be the same with pu2. Is the cause for pu2’s inactivity really a large group of people from lower Divs or is it the higher Div players?


Last edited by Buffalo Bill,

Koeitje

AUTOBOTS

Quoted from Buffalo Bill

[…]

Then remake that instead of kicking people out of pu2 unnecessary. A cleanup was in order for pu2 yes, but this was shortsighted and uncalled for.

And you have to ask yourself: if Invite pickup died, despite only allowing Div2/1 players, what caused it? Cause it will be the same with pu2. Is the cause for pu2’s inactivity really a large group of people from lower Divs or is it the higher Div players?

There should be a line between quantity and quality. Following your logic we should all play pug1, because that’s the most active channel and therefore the best.

Besides, the pool of div3 players is bigger than div1 and 2 combined. So you can’t really compare them.

Also remember that you learn nothing from being simply outskilled. It’s best to play against opponent vs which you have a chance to win but you gotta work for it. Not against people who kill you 90% of the time. And of course there is also a skillceiling every player reaches at some point. Not everybody can become div1 standard.

Quoted from Koeitje

[…]

There should be a line between quantity and quality. Following your logic we should all play pug1, because that’s the most active channel and therefore the best.

Besides, the pool of div3 players is bigger than div1 and 2 combined. So you can’t really compare them.

Also remember that you learn nothing from being simply outskilled. It’s best to play against opponent vs which you have a chance to win but you gotta work for it. Not against people who kill you 90% of the time. And of course there is also a skillceiling every player reaches at some point. Not everybody can become div1 standard.

I’ll thank you for putting words in my mouth. I did not say we should all play pu1, nor did I imply that. Quality vs Quantity is something I completely agree with, but quality is not easily defined by Division. To simply cut off a group of people who are perfectly capable of playing at that level/have the potential and drive simply because they don’t have the right number is short-sighted and detrimental. People complain about top level TF2 being dead? This change ensures it will remain that way by preventing the people who can play at that level to gain the experience and see what it’s like to play with and against people of Div3+ standard.
You had a channel that allows only Div2/1, and it’s dead. Best option would have been to convert that to the current version of pu2, while keeping pu2 as it was before but under close watch to keep an active player base with the drive to improve. As you said you learn nothing from being killed 90% of the time, and conversely the person killing the rest 90% of the time doesn’t learn anything. This means the people from Div4/top Div5 who have absolutely no trouble topfragging in pu1 and don’t learn anything there now have nowhere to go for useful pickups. They can either stomp in pu1, or wait another half year or so before they can play pu2.

I’m not opposed to this channel, I’m opposed to how it’s implemented. There is no middle ground. Make the invite channel like this and return pu2 to it’s former state (except under close watch), or turn the invite channel into the old pu2 under close watch. Whatever happens, it’s gotta happen fast. Right now, you’re helping a small group while fucking over a group of equal size.


Last edited by Buffalo Bill,

Koeitje

AUTOBOTS

At what level? The old pickup2 level can’t be used as a standard. Yes, there might be players that could play div3+ but are playing in lower divisions. It is however virtually impossible to approve/disprove all of them. You would need multiple games to get a good estimate of players’ skilllevel. There are simply not enough admins to manage such a load.

And to be quite honest, div3 is a reasonable goal for any team. If you really want to improve go to #tf2mentor and get some tips. Just trust me when I say that you learn more from playing teams just above your skillevel. Pickups are nice to learn the very basics, but that’s about it. Playing with your own team will teach you much more, since your team will be (pretty much) the same every game.

Rele

Quoted from Koeitje

Pickups are nice to learn the very basics, but that’s about it. Playing with your own team will teach you much more, since your team will be (pretty much) the same every game.

This. Pickups are nice for having a relaxed game and maybe for training your aim a bit (the latter you can more efficiently do on DM servers). In fact, I believe playing pickups actually makes you a worse player because you tend to have bad habits there, like constantly flanking people as Scout which works in pugs only cause ppl dont call as much there.


Last edited by Rele,

Quoted from Koeitje

At what level? The old pickup2 level can’t be used as a standard. Yes, there might be players that could play div3+ but are playing in lower divisions. It is however virtually impossible to approve/disprove all of them. You would need multiple games to get a good estimate of players’ skilllevel. There are simply not enough admins to manage such a load.

And to be quite honest, div3 is a reasonable goal for any team. If you really want to improve go to #tf2mentor and get some tips. Just trust me when I say that you learn more from playing teams just above your skillevel. Pickups are nice to learn the very basics, but that’s about it. Playing with your own team will teach you much more, since your team will be (pretty much) the same every game.

Div3 is a reasonable goal, yes, but it takes at least more than 1 season to reach it ánd be able to play in pickups (assuming you’re in Div6/5/4 now), and people who play to reach that level don’t do that because they want to play pickups at that level, it’s because they want to play with their team at that level or higher. This does nothing to “improve the quality of players in pu2 by encouraging people to improve with their team” (as was said earlier).

This still leaves a question and an issue:

Question: Why did pu2 get changed into this instead of the invite channel?
Issue: You up there are now fine and dandy with fun pickups, but what about those in Div4/5 who aren’t allowed there despite being good enough? The only option they have in pu1 which is pretty much equal to pubs (arguably worse due to the smaller team size).

byte

Quoted from Buffalo Bill

[…]

You up there are now fine and dandy with fun pickups, but what about those in Div4/5 who aren’t allowed there despite being good enough? The only option they have in pu1 which is pretty much equal to pubs (arguably worse due to the smaller team size).

There are some div 4 players in the room and they are under close watch if they don’t improve then their invite will be removed. I of all people have mentored well over 50/60 players and clans from the div 6 to div 4 range and believe you me the majority at div 6 and div 5 level are not even close to good enough, of course there is an odd exception here or there.

However if you yourself get into the stage where you’ve improved alot (Because you’ve put the time in) and your clan hasn’t and hence you’ll be staying in div 6 or 5 or w/e with your team and not progressing then usually that player will leave the team and find a better skilled clan perhaps one in div 4 and if your lucky depending how much “better” you’ve got maybe div 3…

Prime example is sickless although he’s under close watch : >

Simple answer is get better, you or whoever is relying on pickups to make you a better player is not the way forward, ask those who have got mentored. Usually some tips and some practice advised is the best method to improve your individual skill for your main class.

Another prime example is me : > I started TF2 just by playing dustbowl 24/7 for 3 months and voila i got into ^wotr^ and then was rated a good demoman for division 1 scene. Think i got it over night? No i worked my ass off and not even playing pcw’s nor pickups just public play.

The main problem is when we allow a division 5 skilled player (assuming he’s not an exception i.e. somehow he’s amazing yet playing at div 5) his or her deathmatch ability is somewhat very poor not just poor but VERY poor; and at pug2 level this is not acceptable.

Main things that usually players have to have is

– Some aim (‘some’ can be justified as a % somewhere between 40-60%)
– Some GOOD comms (again ‘some’ can be justified with the basic calling comms given)
– Some game sense (in this case ‘some’ is somewhere between 20-40%)

Alot of divison 4/5/6 (and even some div 3) players are missing 2 out of the 3 either because their foreign and find talking in English difficult or just can’t deathmatch and talk/call at the same time. Or have zero gamesense due to the level they play at and just haven’t got the experience. A pickup can help you with gamesense but you to play at pug2 level you have to have at least some basic gamesense and that is the key thing that players do not get , i.e. what they think they are doing during game is the best and most optimized method when to another person watching i.e. say me i’m busy sighing and go omg what the hell…

Ask other demos when they’ve asked me for tips, i’ve seen what they do then i ask them why then they think its the correct method then i give them a different method then they go “ohhhhhhhhhhh yeah thats so much better”…[31]ups would be a good example. If you need help in this area or with your team then ask in tf2mentor i’m currently going to be helping snuke with SirRemix just for gamesense and calling comms.

And finally aim again this is a skill that can be learnt just by playing a particular map over and over again but the main point is you have to put the time in, as the same with anything in life.

Doing deathmatch 1 on 1 is not the best and ideal way it is just to teach you the basics but i figure most can do the very basic aiming in div 6/5 :)

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Byte


Last edited by byte,

dauk

so even if ill play div4 i still can be under big eye of decision i’m allowed or not?

alfa

Quoted from dauk

so even if ill play div4 i still can be under big eye of decision i’m allowed or not?

No,you must have played in d3 or higher in season 5 or 6 to get in the new pug2…I mean my team finaly made it to div3 but that wont make the admins invite us back.


Last edited by alfa,

Quoted from byte

[…]
wall-o-text
Cheers

Byte

Cropped to enhance readability.

Good. That’s all I want: for everybody to play pickups at the level they can/deserve. But what about the people who aren’t Div3 standard, but who are too good for pu1? There’s no fun to be had in pu1 if you’re not of that low level, and you can’t get in pu2. Is there a channel coming for Div5/4 standard? Essentially as pu2 used to be, but closely monitored this time. If so, how soon will it be up?

Nmx

ᴷᵈ

Wasn’t there a pu1.5 coming up in the next month or 2, 3, 4?
Depending on how active pu2 is gonna be.

Thats what I heard atleast.

Master

Actimel

New pickup is really good. Now ppl play there mb because its new, but I can see players from 1st div that play there much often than before, so we dont have to worry about activity for few weeks. Many ppl are not invited yet, so i think it will be even better soon.

If I need to say sth about comms, mumble is good solution to see who aint talking, but fortunately every1 is talking about everything he can see. And you dont have to worry about new players ( mb with some aim ) that are shy or cant speak good enough.

If you are player from div4/5, but you think you can handle div3 it’s another way to become better known, you can simply play in other leagues and beat there some good teams. There is wireplay, esl, clanbase so its not, that you need to wait to another season to show you are quite good. But anyway, ppl that own in div4/5/6 in their team can play in div 3 standard in less than few weeks. Look at #mixmercs from time to time ;]

ups

Quoted from alfa

[…]

No,you must have played in d3 or higher in season 5 or 6 to get in the new pug2…I mean my team finaly made it to div3 but that wont make the admins invite us back.

Yeah, this is a problem I can understand :)

Anyway, there’s one thing that bothers me. Imagine there is already a channel (invite-only with some really strict control of the playerbase) for div 4-5 players. Since this channel requires lower skill, I’d assume that any player from div3+ would easily acquire an invitation to such a pickup. This will happen eventually due to the higher activity of the lower pickup since the amount of teams in lower divisions is far greater than those of div3 and above it. I’m a bit confident about this, because some of the players use pickups in order to warm-up, “feel the mouse” if you could say that, and I think that it’s obviuos that it’s better to play in a pickup which is lower on your skill-scale, than wait for two bloody medics in a higher pickup if you need a few quick warm-up rounds. This will eventually render pu2 useless.

Also, just a quick thought (or two) of mine: for me, it was always better to fight against players that are a lot “higher”, because then you can see your smallest mistakes clearly (unless you’re a rager). I’m trying to say that being “assraped” 90% of the time is a…Well, it’ s a good thing. Byte showed me that the things I consider small and insignificant can impact the game greatly like small peaces of a puzzle impact the picture you will get in the end…And those peaces are available one-by-one when someone rapes you one time after the other.

P.S. Sorry guys, if I’m not making any sense, I’m a bit sick atm :) Also, I’m really sorry for my english as well.


Last edited by ups,

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