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Quoted from SmitZ

I’d just like to point out I never used the term “pub noobs.” If you’re going to quote me at least do so with some accuracy.

K, you said “pub players”. Semantics, whatever.

Quoted from SmitZ

And maybe you’re right, but from your other comments replying to Muuki it seemed like you didn’t even understand what he was saying.

Perhaps I didn’t. What I got from it was “don’t let pub players tell valve which weapons to ban, because they don’t know” which, imo, is 1. incorrect and 2. not even what’s happening.

@Spike Did you have the same opinions on unlocks when you played pub as you do now? If you picked a pub player and asked him what unlocks should be banned in highlander do you think he’d make good choices? I don’t, you need good insight into a format before you can offer opinions on what’s best for it.

Quoted from ondkaja

[…]

You will never get a kill with the sentry unless you put it in a sneaky position (or if you’re playing against retards), and keeping the sentry alive will be MUCH harder. That’s where the skill ceiling increases. Right now, the skill ceiling with the wrangler is so low you have to crawl.

the thing is though that to take a wranglered sentry down you have to have teamwork and some basic sense of strategy, which is why it’s still not banned. Since both teams can have it, it doesn’t really make a difference if it’s overpowered or not compared to the normal sentries. (and yes it is vastly OP)

Normal sentries can be destroyed without uber, by a single spam class really easily. And it’s not like you can come up with so many sneaky spots on maps that you probably played 1000 times already anyway. Wrangler does slow the game down, but i feel it would be too fast on payload at least without the wrangler.

Quoted from ondkaja

[…]

I didn’t say that you should put sentries in sneaky positions, it’s pretty retarded to do that. I said just said you generally won’t get kills unless you do that. But having a sentry isn’t about getting kills, it’s about holding positions.

I want the sentry to be easier to detroy to pace up the game, boost up the incentive to play as a team, an engineer should only be able to keep his sentry up with the help from pretty much all of his team. If your team lets the enemy demoman spam sentries then you deserve to have the sentry destroyed and not saved by the wrangler. Learn to hold properly instead of relying on the wrangler.

I’m starting to think you can’t read.

You’re saying sentries are for holding a position and not for getting kills? Then why did you even suggest “sneaky” sentries? Your own argument is backfiring now. Besides, holding positions is exactly the wrangler is good at right now.

Is there not enough incentive to play as a team for you already? I don’t think there’s any team that relies purely on the wrangler to defend their sentry. I don’t think even div6 players would think that way. Any team can coordinate a push on any pl map to take out a level 3 wrangled sentry. Don’t tell me to “learn to hold properly” just because you can’t win an argument.

Quoted from SmitZ

[…]

Do you not realise that your own opinion on highlander is completely and utterly irrelevant in any discussion on this topic? This thread is not about how little you enjoy a gamemode, it’s about the matchmaking system and how that affects the game. A

div5 scrub? I made no claim to be good at the game in this thread, nor did I insult your “skill level.” All I’m pointing out is that you play in div4 6v6 and div5 highlander. Having only played in these low divisions you are hardly in any position to criticise a gamemode that you’re clearly shit at.

I eagerly await your response. :)

how its irrelavant if they’re making a matchmaking thing for 9v9? who the fuck are you to tell me where to post or not to post? seems like your elitism got a bit out of hand didnt it?
played div3 both highlander and 6v6 so before you post please get your facts right (they’re really easy to fetch even for the lower iq levels, just click on my profile it’ll show my official matches played)

Quoted from ondkaja

[…]

The wrangler being nerfed/banned is for the better of the highlander format. Such a boring unlock, that only serves to slow down the game and lower the skill ceiling considerably, especially for engineers.

How will I do sentry jumps, arguably the only “difficult” thing about the engineer class, if you remove it? Also hiding level 3s isn’t a skill and will not improve the class at all. If you want to nerf it take the auto aim off.

Quoted from ondkaja

[…]

You will never get a kill with the sentry unless you put it in a sneaky position (or if you’re playing against retards), and keeping the sentry alive will be MUCH harder. That’s where the skill ceiling increases. Right now, the skill ceiling with the wrangler is so low you have to crawl.

I’ll have you know that I get plenty of kills every game with unwrangled level 3s and I don’t think anyone can consider SNSD retards. :)
You also seem pretty uninformed and angry. I’d love if you stopped spewing nonsense and actually watch some high level engineer play first.

If you really want to make the engie a harder class take away the Gunslinger or nerf it.

Quoted from Monkeh

[…]

Both teams could run FAN scouts or sanvich heavies. Both teams can use it is a terrible argument as both teams could run any weapon, why ban anything?

This ‘not turning into an unlock thread’ ain’t turning out too good huh?

The point is that the wrangler is a core of the current highlander metagame. It isn’t a surprise when it’s run, it’s very easily visible and expected as it’s the obvious choice. It allows the defending team to defend around a point on the map and forces coordination from the attacking team. I guess the real reason they use it is that it’s better for highlander to be played when the sentry is this powerful, it’s less of an important part when the sentry is taken down easily with a bit of spam.

@Spike: I would apply that same argument to everyone who ever moved from pub to 6v6, as I think it’s as relevant to everyone. Now we have a range of stats all saying that we, collectively, didn’t have a fucking clue and therefore neither will they.

And because they don’t have a clue, they’ll be banning based on personal preference and the only useful conclusion of the stats will be “what weapon annoys me the most to die to” which is not the same as “what weapons are going to make this format less enjoyable to play/watch for everyone involved”

Quoted from Sideshow

[…]

And because they don’t have a clue, they’ll be banning based on personal preference and the only useful conclusion of the stats will be “what weapon annoys me the most to die to” which is not the same as “what weapons are going to make this format less enjoyable to play/watch for everyone involved”

This is exactly right. A large proportion of pub players may find the flare gun or axtinguisher to be “over powered” and nominate it to be banned in a game, but that doesn’t mean that it’s actually over powered in competitive play.

Just because a pub player plays in a “competitive” game, doesn’t mean that their already established dislike for certain weapons won’t carry over to the competitive format, regardless of whether their argument against the weapon is still relevant or not.