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TF2 more pro?

Created 6th December 2012 @ 17:27

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silly

Quoted from Monkeh

Being pro means getting payed to play, nothing to do with hard to master.

engaged in a specified activity as one’s main paid occupation rather than as an amateur:
a professional boxer…or TF2 player

I disagree. Most of the games back in the day was considered pro because they were hard to master, plus popular. Quake, UT, Painkiller, CS 1.6, all of them. Players were paid because they could master the game and take places, showing The Brand™ in a good light.

Muuki

sirkkels
GG

Quoted from AcidReniX

[…]

The thing is that in LoL is a moba, which is a competetive gamestyle no matter how casual you try to make it. If it’s too casual and random, then it won’t get played. TF2 on the other hand is a massively casual FPS which has absolutely no reason at all to even have this level of competetive. Which is why riot puts money into it, and valve does not. There is nothing further I can bring up because you didn’t actually respond to anything I wrote, especially the fact that you need to stop comparing the game’s styles.


Last edited by Muuki,

Monkeh

.:ne:.
.:ne:.

I liked Ele’s idea that he posted somewhere. You buy a hat/medal/pet/ticket/whatever, you can join matchmaking system. Hat runs out once a month, twice a year, once a decade….whatever.

Hmm, says newbie, I’ve enjoyed my matchmaking play, hey valve, gimme another hat please…

Quoted from silly

I disagree.

You disagree with the definition of an English word…kk

Also Muuki has a good point, dota has been designed from the ground up as an esports title, tf2 was a bit o’ fun that has been shoehorned into a comp environment. Very different beasts.


Last edited by Monkeh,

AcidReniX

RaWr ::

Quoted from silly

Then again, why would we need TF2 to get more like “pub”, if we’re trying to make it “PRO”? Being “PRO” is not about having a lot of stream viewers, but being hard to master.

The easier a game is for the casual player, the harder it is to be the _best_ at that game. When a game is so easy for everyone else, you have to literally make sure everything you do is perfect.

In a public CS game, anyone can land a headshot and get a one hit kill with ease. You move into competitive CS, and still, anyone can get a one hit kill with ease. So what’s the difference between a pro and an average competitive player in CS? It’s literally miliseconds in timing, or aiming. It’s team tactics, but those tactics have to be executed to absolute perfection. CS is such a simple game, but it’s ridiculously hard to become number 1 at. Same goes for league of legends, CoD etc..

Starcraft 2 is a more difficult game, but it plays the same as a public match. Starcraft 2 is a LOT easier than Starcraft broodwar, and yet it’s more competitive than broodwar ever was. New players simply gave up trying to play broodwar, and you were left with a small pro scene, or a non-existent one outside of Korea. The simplified building selection, automining etc… took some skill elements out of the game, but they were quite boring, and ultimately it’s made the game much more competitive. More about the strategy rather than who manages to click on 15 barracks and press M the most consistently.

There are exceptions. Quake is the best one. Quake is ridiculously hard to play. You don’t get any new players coming into quake, but you get a reasonably large amount of spectators from all different FPS games, who watch simply out of amazement at the level of skill of the players. Some of those rail gun shots make my jaw drop, and I’ve been a reasonably competitive gamer for a number of years now. It’s actually amazing. But then, didn’t Quake Live try some sort of, free to play model to get some money in? It didn’t really work, and I don’t see Quake’s creators throwing too much more money at the game, because there’s simply no return on their investment.

Koeitje

AUTOBOTS

Considering everybody can get a backstab as a spy without even aimin I hereby declare tf2 the highest skilled competitive shooter ever made.

AcidReniX

RaWr ::

Quoted from Muuki

[…]The thing is that in LoL is a moba, which is a competetive gamestyle no matter how casual you try to make it. If it’s too casual and random, then it won’t get played. TF2 on the other hand is a massively casual FPS which has absolutely no reason at all to even have this level of competetive. Which is why riot puts money into it, and valve does not. There is nothing further I can bring up because you didn’t actually respond to anything I wrote, especially the fact that you need to stop comparing the game’s styles.

The funny thing is, TF2 has game modes that pretty much force you to be competitive. The sad thing is, the one that we play, is not one of those.

Payload maps have a cart that heals you. If you want to be healed, you’re automatically pushing the cart. Payload maps also work on the principle that if you ‘want to get to the next stage’, then you have to push the cart. It’s surprising how competitively people play that game mode on a typical public server!! The other point, is that if players want to fight each other, they have to move towards each other. With the attackers moving towards the enemy team, they tend to also move the cart, and unless they want to walk all the way from the first spawn each time they respawn, they want to secure the objective to give them a closer spawn.

Same goes with the dustbowl style maps. They are played surprisingly competitively. The defence sets up so strongly, that either a player keeps running in and getting owned by a couple of sentry guns, or they try some sort of coordinated attack with the other attackers to get some frags.

5 CP maps… hmmm not so much. They end up being a big stale mate, with two teams both waiting for each other to walk into their defensive lines, with a few spies going in the back door to get some cheeky stabs. But that’s just how the game mode works in publics.

Riots doesn’t put money into league just for fun. They put it in because they get a return on their investment, or because they have already made enough money, and want to keep people playing the game (so they make more money (again, a return)). They are a business after all.

Valve pumps money into Dota2, because they can see a return on their investment. Arguable, that money came from TF2, but from a business point of view, the competitive scene in dota2 is going to make them a lot more money than the competitive scene in TF2, because of reasons mentioned earlier. If we promote their products that are for sale (weapons, skins, hats), then they might give us some time of day, but at the moment… nada!

AcidReniX

RaWr ::

Quoted from Koeitje

Considering everybody can get a backstab as a spy without even aimin I hereby declare tf2 the highest skilled competitive shooter ever made.

Uh huh! So it’s really easy to get a kill as a spy, so what makes someone the best spy? Is it easy to become the number 1 spy in TF2? The number 1 spy must literally be amazing if everyone in the world can just get a kill so easily. I need to meet him ;)

See what I mean?

Muuki

sirkkels
GG

Quoted from AcidReniX

[…]

You’re just agreeing with me here?

Competetive leagues built up, found a good system (6v6), established a few working rulesets, skillcap got high, players got even better…

No valve in this which is why we have nothing good happening between pubs and comp, if you would make some batshit retarded system such as “PREMIER DIVISION PL_GOLDRUSH ALL UNLOCKS 12v12”, tf2 would die even faster.

Take enjoyment in this while you can, as it’s not going to last forever.


Last edited by Muuki,

silly

Quoted from Monkeh

[…]
You disagree with the definition of an English word…kk

Having a profession and being a professional player is somewhat different.
Players get paid not TO play, but to play under someone’s brand, to promote it any way they can. (Na’Vi multigaming is sponsored by Steelseries, check out how much advertising they have in their videos!)

Quoted from AcidReniX

The easier a game is for the casual player, the harder it is to be the _best_ at that game. When a game is so easy for everyone else, you have to literally make sure everything you do is perfect.

In a public CS game, anyone can land a headshot and get a one hit kill with ease. You move into competitive CS, and still, anyone can get a one hit kill with ease. So what’s the difference between a pro and an average competitive player in CS? It’s literally miliseconds in timing, or aiming. It’s team tactics, but those tactics have to be executed to absolute perfection. CS is such a simple game, but it’s ridiculously hard to become number 1 at. Same goes for league of legends, CoD etc..

Lol. That’s a fail analogy in so many ways, I can’t handle it.
You can headshot scouts as sniper in TF2, both in pub and competitive. What’s the difference between these scouts?

Their positioning, moving, reaction to an enemy. Plus, in competitive, sniper off-classing would be called out.

Same goes for Counter-Strike, competitive players won’t put themselves in obvious losing situations, they would throw smoke grenades, call out if enemy has an AWP, watch flanks and such. While a pub player wouldn’t give a shit, just run around hoping to get a headshot or two.

Quoted from AcidReniX

Quake is ridiculously hard to play. You don’t get any new players coming into quake, but you get a reasonably large amount of spectators from all different FPS games, who watch simply out of amazement at the level of skill of the players.

I’ll tell you why. Because it has been mastered. Nobody ever changed the rules, nobody simplified it. It has been always the same jump from bridge to RG at dm6. Instead of whining, people learnt to use game physics in their favour. They would time every item on the map because of how significant it changes your dominance over an enemy.

C

cp_

Quoted from Maltha

[…]

just no.. The more divs in ETF2L is just good. So the noobs aint gonna play against the pros at div 2+.

So i believe that you should delete this post, and not humiliate yourself with this post..
Its just a free tip from me to you.

Lame comment is lame.. Your argument is for noobs not to be able to play against div 2? How would that even work? Noobs would still be put in the worst div… It is not like it is going to be 4 random divs where people are placed at random.. :S

Regen

nf.
9F

Quoted from C

[…]

Lame comment is lame.. Your argument is for noobs not to be able to play against div 2? How would that even work? Noobs would still be put in the worst div… It is not like it is going to be 4 random divs where people are placed at random.. :S

I think he means the fact that if we had Prof – Amateur – Beginner or w/e division system, it’s going to be like Prem/D1= Prof // D2-D3-D4= Amateur and D5-D6 would be beginner.
This is quite a big of a gap really, the teams that’ll be low Amateur will most likely get rolled 90% of the matches in their amateur games, they’ll get placed in beginner or w/e and win all the matches there.
I think it’s too much of a gap to just melt together the divisions into 3 of them, not even mentioning that i don’t see how this would EVER “make tf2 more pro”

Monkeh

.:ne:.
.:ne:.

Quoted from silly

Having a profession and being a professional player is somewhat different.
Players get paid not TO play, but to play under someone’s brand, to promote it any way they can. (Na’Vi multigaming is sponsored by Steelseries, check out how much advertising they have in their videos!)

Meh, stop splitting hairs, they get monies for playing video games, they are professional gamers who earn a living from mouse and keyboard manipulation. That is professional. It is a profession.

Really, really good players of a game who don’t earn any kind of significant monies are really, really good amateurs. There is no argument here.

You can argue you meant, ‘top players’, when you used the word professional, but then, they really aren’t the same thing at all. European TF2 has a lot ot top players, high skilled amateurs, but no professionals.

Check out the title of Byte’s video here, see how he puts ‘pro’ in inverted commas, it’s because he knew he wasn’t a pro, despite playing at the very top of the scene.

Enough now anyway, I’m being really pedantic and must stop replying.

C

cp_

Quoted from Regen

[…]

I think he means the fact that if we had Prof – Amateur – Beginner or w/e division system, it’s going to be like Prem/D1= Prof // D2-D3-D4= Amateur and D5-D6 would be beginner.
This is quite a big of a gap really, the teams that’ll be low Amateur will most likely get rolled 90% of the matches in their amateur games, they’ll get placed in beginner or w/e and win all the matches there.
I think it’s too much of a gap to just melt together the divisions into 3 of them, not even mentioning that i don’t see how this would EVER “make tf2 more pro”

Mmh I agree on 3 divisions would be too little… But by personally experince the diffrence between div 6 and 5 are aim, from 4 to 3 is gamesense, 1 to 2 alittle of both…
I do think you could combine those divisions and then keep prem for the best of the best.

How I think it would work, is that climbing up in divison would be alot faster and we would faster see more teams competing at high level divisions. This is nice, since it is getting abit borring that every 4 mix/pcw you play arround div 3 and up is bassicly with someone you played against in the previous one.

As I have earlier uttered about is that I want to help those I can to get into comp fast, so that they can climb the etf2l “ladder” quickly and get to play with some better people.
Maybe less divisions would again, mean less steps for those players to take.

Yes some people would get raped and yes some people will rape other. But that is how the story goes, atm I am searching div 2-5 bassicly on tf2.wars since there is to many divisions for me to only search for one. (Ofcouse this depends on the time of the day)

My earlier comment was mostly meant for the guy replying, since he had no arguments and bassicly he just shot down that other comment with no proof of him knowing anything.

Peace out, and sorry for long reply! :)

-C

irfx

EPA

Quoted from Monkeh

[…]

Can you please explain why this is better or ‘very useful’? The divisions here all seem to have a team at the top that has won 90%+ of their games and teams at the bottom who have won 0-20% of their games and people in the middle who are somewhere in between. This happens anyway naturally, those at the top of div 4 rape those newly promoted div 5 teams…in general. Increasing the skill gap between the top and bottom of a division makes no sense to me.

Why does three divisions make it more useful? What does more useful even mean in this context anyway?

I can think of no real sport where this system is in place, you play for a local club, then maybe your town, then county, then maybe semi pro, then pro, then prem.

Doubt I’d sign up for a league I knew I had absolutely no chance of achieving anything in for ages because those guys at the top of my division are soooo much better than me. It’s also not much fun raping/being raped either.

Mate, it was a sarcasm.

Monkeh

.:ne:.
.:ne:.

Yeah? yeah well…ermmm, so was mine. HA, trolled so hard….

yup…ahem.

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