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The Beta Inquiry #1: The Direct Hit
Created 10th December 2010 @ 13:24
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Quoted from RaCio
The only extra knockback is that of the extra damage which with the normal rocket launcher would be 1 damage less then for example your tdh suggestion with +10% damage on base range (on longer ranges the rocket launcher with minicrits would be a bit stronger).
At point blank the rocket launcher would deal 150 with minicrits and the DH 124 without. Dealing 122 minimum at long range is too much. I’d be in favour of a sharper damage falloff for DH which then flattens out (so it’s not the case that the DH simply does more damage on airshots at any range) but minicrits are just unnecessary.
Quoted from RaCio
So I don’t really see the mini-crits as a definite problem. It’s also what makes the weapon unique so I don’t see valve changing it :p
The rocket speed and reduced splash give it an entirely different feel. The minicrits don’t really do anything to make the weapon feel unique, it just means you have to shoot them 1 less time most of the time.
Quoted from Vali
[…]
At point blank the rocket launcher would deal 150 with minicrits and the DH 124 without. Dealing 122 minimum at long range is too much.
I’d see the close range damage as more of a problem then the 122 damage at long range airshots.
Quoted from Vali
The rocket speed and reduced splash give it an entirely different feel. The minicrits don’t really do anything to make the weapon feel unique, it just means you have to shoot them 1 less time most of the time.
I’d say the different feel can be kind of a problem if it’s to extreme (see my earlier post: http://etf2l.org/forum/beta/topic-14804/page-1/?recent=255118#post-255017). But yes, in terms of gameplay adjusting rocket speed and splash does more for a weapon then mini-crits on airshots. What I was referring to was unique effects. Surely you could ask valve to remove the specially coded effect that was requested by the competitive community, but I doubt that will happen or that it is necessary.
Airshots doesnt need to be directly rewarded, just made easier. If a solly gets to actually play with it, in the end it would probably be 70% success rate of denying at spire for instance. Just make point blank dmg >125 and remove minicrit.
Easier airshots only slow down the game imo. The damage doesnt even matter much during the mid fight/stale moments as you have near 300 hp as jumping solly anyway.
The current Direct Hit:
+25% damage done
+80% projectile speed
Mini-crits airborne targets
-70% explosion radius
The extra damage done does make the weapon worth while but the only major difference from the added damage is the ability to more or less one-shot-kill some classes. I believe that in general thanks to the class updates, TF2 has been a bit overwhelmed by one-shot-kills and I think it would be best to use the TF2 beta as a way of reducing the number of them in the game as most players dislike not having a chance to fight back.
The extra projectile speed is a fine mechanic but it is somewhat harsh to those on the receiving end. They have much less time to avoid the incoming rocket compared to the original rocket launcher. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as long as it is balanced out by something else. Although, sometimes using the direct hit is more like using a sort of “rail gun”.
I’ve honestly hated the idea of mini-crits from the start, and this is no exception. Mini-crits remove all damage fall off. For hitscan weapons this is generally not so bad because they will hurt a bit, but not enough to feel unfair. One mini-crit shotgun pellet is not the worst thing ever. When combined with one of the fastest projectiles in the game, it is somewhat retarded. The vast majority of the time, these long range mini-crits are entirely luck based and are incredibly frustrating.
The reduced explosion radius is a nice idea, but it removes so much versatility that it is more or less the reason why most soldiers probably don’t enjoy using the direct hit; regardless to however good or bad they may be with it. They can no longer clear out stickies at chokepoint, they can no longer splash enemies around corners, they can no longer get easy juggling shots by hitting the ground beneath a jumping target. In general, all the things that are the most fun about playing as a soldier are broken by this.
I did have a rather lackluster suggestion of testing something along the lines of:
+100% rocket speed
-50% clip size
However Koeitje was quick to point out that “Nobody would use that, not enough damage output.”
The general thinking behind this was that it would give a clear advantage to any soldier when begining a fight, but unless they made good use of those two super-rockets, they’d be outgunned very quickly. It’s hard to tell how it’d actually work in practice but presuming Koeitje is correct, then perhaps another mechanic could be added where two rockets would be reloaded at once although I imagine that would begin to borderline the overpowered zone.
Wall-o-text.
Quoted from RaCio
I’d see the close range damage as more of a problem then the 122 damage at long range airshots.
What I was referring to was unique effects. Surely you could ask valve to remove the specially coded effect that was requested by the competitive community, but I doubt that will happen or that it is necessary.
Well close-range damage only becomes a problem if you add in minicrits, otherwise it is (and rightfully so) completely comparable to shooting someone on the ground pointblank. 122 damage long range is too much and the closer they get the more damage it’s gonna do. If you offer too much damage for airshots then you get the same problem that we have now in that it slows down the game too much. There’s a fine line to tread between rewarding the soldier and how the pace of the game is effected and minicrits are definitely too slowing and too rewarding.
I don’t get your second point, the minicrit effect would still be in the game albeit elsewhere and the coding for the “launched by explosion -> minicrit” should be replaced by “launched by explosion -> reduced fall-off damage” and applied to all the rocket launchers. Just means we don’t end up with lame minicrits on airshots.
Quoted from RaCio
Easier airshots only slow down the game imo. The damage doesnt even matter much during the mid fight/stale moments as you have near 300 hp as jumping solly anyway.
Matters a lot. If you get hit you are a sitting duck (either in the air from the knockback, or from being smashed down right on the middle of the point/valley). Vs the normal RL you are relatively safe.
Like Ched have said: the main problem of minicrits is that they completely disable any damage fallof (the same happens with crits). Scoring an airshot from middle range is fairly easy (and a lot easier than with normal, slow rocket) but the damage is still as high as from point blank – all because of minicrit mechanic.
Another DH problem is splash radius – it doesn’t let you damage more than one guy at once so it’s uneffective against a group of players. The second con of tiny splash radius is fact, that hitting directly under crouch-jumped player won’t hurt him at all.
And finally, +25% damage is a bit too much (a bit meaning that the max damage shouldn’t be more than 125).
Generally I think that design of a rocket launcher which fires faster projectiles but has a smaller splash radius is a great idea and can be a decent alternative with standard rocket launcher, but the statistics and mini-crit awards implemented are fairly unbalanced.
tl;dr – no mini-crits, a little higher splash radius and less damage so that can’t get one shot – one kill on light classes.
Should be about this:
Direct hit:
+80% projectile speed
+15% damage done
-50% explosion radius
Which is similliar to other propositions.
-edit: Read the topic start-
I think a problem with the DH is not just the damage from the mini-crit, but also the knockback.
Either: you are slammed into the ground, likely killing you (RJ dmg + DH hit + fall), or you are launched high into the air (usually near vertically) which then leaves you open to chip damage from shotty (+ fall damage) or a second airshot (which is much easier to perform with the DH).
I think it’s mainly this dynamic combined with it discouraging aggressive rocket jumps that makes it a bit of a boring weapon to play with/against. (I think a fast, easy airshot RL has enough influence on rocket jumping simply through denial without needing to damage the player as much as the DH does).
IMO: increase clip size, remove mini-crits, remove some of the damage, keep splash size down to smaller than the lowest point of the hitbox on a crouch jumping model.
Im going to disagree with the above posts again. Most observations are pretty much correct however then people come up with a conclusion or suggestion that seems unrelated to the problems brought up in the same post.
I totally agree with the post above me saying that a large problem of tdh is that as with all explosive weapons the rocket will break your jump and either launch you up or throw you down in the middle of spam. A mid range scattergun shot on a jumping soldier does not stop him mid air, but a tdh shot totally denies the jump and is only slightly harder. Its the prevention of going aggresive that people tend to see as annoying. (in addition to light classes being one shotted)
So the first part of the post is pretty much spot on. But your conclusion seems a bit off. You said that knockback was a great problem of the weapon, yet you want to keep the rocket speed and get rid of the mincrits. Do you think having a tdh with super fast rockets and increased damage would not cause the exact same situation you discribed earlier? And how do your arguments support removing mincrits rather than the damage, both effects should be about equal as both lower airshot damage.
Fact is, mincrits are fairly trivial to the problems the tdh has. Hell, the original suggestion of the attribute came from prem div player Moose. Now I’m sure all of you are way smarter then him and valve, and can come up with way better and cooler stuff but that’s slightly besides the point of this thread, feedback and solving problems.
As I’ve posted before, I personally consider the tdh to have 3 problems. Oneshotting light classes, easy airshots making going aggresive a pain and the fast rockets/low splash making the weapon feel strange to normal soldier play and to much like hitscan. Feel free to disagree on those and mention why :)
I had no time to read the other posts so I’ll just post my suggestion:
Lower damage to the damage of the rocket launcher. Instead increase the damage on distant targets. Damage should still be calculated considering the distance of the target but the coefficient reducing the damage over distance should be decreased. With these changes the Direct Hit would be more interesting for Solis because with good aim he could do considerable damage over long distances. Let’s say 65 damage with a direct hit from badlands choke to balcony. Silly minicrits should completely be removed.
Current stats of TDH
+25% damage done
+80% projectile speed
Mini-crits airborne targets
-70% explosion radius
Current stats of the Lock and load
+10% Damage done.
+25% Projectile speed.
-60% clip size.
Launched bombs shatter on surface.
+25 Damage done to self.
No fall of damage on direct Hit
Personally I like the new lock and load, and it maks TDH look massively OP in comparison, however since the lock and load is a secondary weapon (in reality) I wouldn’t like to see TDH copied instead this
+25% damage done
+80% projectile speed
-90% explosion radius (got to be able to rocket jump)
-25% firing speed
As a scout being 1 shot doesn’t bother me, as I remember the amount of times I lived thanks to the lack ofsplash damage (granted with the better aim in the top divisions, I’d probably die a lot more, however I’d still try and keep the solider at mid range)
Remove the mini crits and make it so a second shot can not be fired so quickly, making the punishment for missing higher
*edit*
Also people keep going on about slowing the game down through jumping… apart from badlands spire, which other currently played map does anyone jump blind? Good soldiers sit players down with the rocket launcher on normal jumps (e.g. suicide jumps for medic), I really think this is a much smaller problem than people make it out to be.
Please don’t say it slows the game down, it’s a slow game anyway
Whats the point in changing mini-crits if your version would still be annoying as hell for anyone trying to jump.
I also disagree about one-shotting not being a problem. While the rocket laucnher might be more consistent I do think that one-shotting on close range with a rocket launcher is kind of silly.
As said earlier I think the weapon as a whole should be tuned down a bit. So your comparison to the loch was quite good.
Another problem (imo), with the tdh is that it is not really popular under people who play soldier as their main class. I’d say mostly because the rocket speed is so high and splash so low that it’s aiming style becomes close the a hitscan weapon as opposed to the normal rocket launcher which uses prediction, and where you aim slightly behind the feet of the target.
Quoted from RaCio
Whats the point in changing mini-crits if your version would still be annoying as hell for anyone trying to jump.
annoying not a good reason to ban, never has been never will be
Stickies are annoying
Kritzkreig is annoying
snipers are annoying
Splash damage is annoying
spys are annoying
etc
So soldiers may have to look before they jump, they see a Direct Hit soldier, they call where he is they get him focused out of the game, or they jump a lot lower, as it is currently TDH & mini crits with the zero falloff on rockets = 180+ damage on a jumping soldier/demo, remove the mini crits an you’re looking at around 60-100 damage.
If you make airshots harder what’s the point in the weapon, reducing the speed, and increasing the splash = another standard rocket launcher (or as close as)
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