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About this HL season and following ones

Created 19th August 2017 @ 13:28

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Erupo89

ヤクザ
TBC

Dear all, this is not a post against any specific person or team. I will just use some example to show how bad rules are ruining seasons, in my opinion, and what I think they should change in order to balance this tournaments a bit better.

I played mid with Crazybwaii junior. We lost 2nd game against a team which was dropped not once, but twice, and we played all 10 games regularly.

Let’s take for example Ginyu reborn (nothing against you guys, I’m talking you since your case is really unusual and it works to explain). They only won 1 game out of 5 (against the last team in mid), and now they are in playoffs since they got not 1, but 2 default win. This way they just won 2 games out of the 10 they should have played. They will probably lose (i wish you to win guys anyway!), granting a possible easy win to someone else, thus making playoffs partially useless/fake.

What Do i want to say? Etf2l Admins should consider some changes to default win as suggest into other topics, and only having 5 weeks makes it very unstable: 6 point from a default win are well enough to be eligible to playoffs, since the 8th position has a team with 17 total points (more than 1/3 has been given for free!). This mechanic is totally unbalanced and is ruining competitions. Please consider changing rules to make it playable and fair, thank you.

AlesKee

(League Admin)
PEDO

fair point tbh, but I detect some salt

sasami

ERCAPITANO
VR

Quoted from AlesKee

fair point tbh, but I detect some salt

^this, but anyway, you are not wrong

Erupo89

ヤクザ
TBC

it’s not about being salty. In this case i wasn’t, maybe it’s because english is not my mother tongue so I might not be able to talk properly. The point is: fix rules otherwise there won’t be any meritocracy and it will be pointless to play.

Aoshi

(Head Admin)
800dpm
m a s o n

Quoted from Erupo89

We lost 2nd game against a team which was dropped not once, but twice, and we played all 10 games regularly.

Different team, same name.

This is not related to the rules if anything. We cant stop teams from dropping or giving default wins to their opponents. If they cant play they cant play. What you’re proposing is punishing teams for their opponents giving a default.

Quoted from Erupo89

Etf2l Admins should consider some changes to default win as suggest into other topics

?

System isnt perfect but its not related to the rules. We always look at making it better.

MoistPenguin

TC

While it is true that some teams do get into playoffs through what may appear to be luck of default wins we cannot punish teams for their opponents being unable to play.

Every league system you can have is a compromise. In the current one we compromised league length in order to have 4 tiers and 3 seasons a year given that the previous system of combining mid and high was not at all popular.

We cannot run a 4 tier 7 week season as there are just not enough teams, if the signups increased by enough such that we were back to season 8/9 levels then we would revert back to a 4 tier 7 week season.

As the signup numbers shrink we end up with less and less options with regards to how we can run the league. So we prioritise the system that will allow people to play the most amount of fun competitive tf2 games.

With regards to your solutions.

Changing default wins away from 6 points – Not going to happen, while it sucks for a team to get into playoffs with default wins imagine if a team misses playoffs because they only got 3 points from a default win whereas if their opponents showed up they could have gotten 6. Not awarding the full 6 points hurts the teams that did nothing wrong.

Changing the season length – As i said this is possible but not with 4 tiers with the current signup amounts, it depends on what people want from the league. The mid/high thing was a mess because it was a last minute solution. If we were to drop to 3 tiers the two playoff brackets in a division probably wouldn’t be a thing hence you would either have mid teams playing open teams or high teams playing mid teams. Which a lot of people would complain about and may well consider not playing. So from a viewpoint of trying to maximise the number of fun tf2 games 3 5 week 4 tier seasons a year is the best compromise.

There a few other options such as when we decide to drop teams. We used to drop teams if they got 2 consecutive or 3 in total default losses and this is still the case but it has changed from 7 to 5 weeks. We could change it so that if you gave a default loss you got dropped from the season.

However a lot of teams give one default loss due to unexpected circumstances or poor planning, and it seems draconian to drop a team from the competition for one default loss.

Erupo89

ヤクザ
TBC

Quoted from Aoshi

[…]

Different team, same name.

This is not related to the rules if anything. We cant stop teams from dropping or giving default wins to their opponents. If they cant play they cant play. What you’re proposing is punishing teams for their opponents giving a default.

[…]

?

System isnt perfect but its not related to the rules. We always look at making it better.

Thank you for the answer. I mean, we lost against a team and that team dropped. This still counted as lost, only because we got a game against a dropping team BEFORE they dropped. If you get it AFTER they drop, it’s default. Not totally fair.

of course you cant prevent teams from dropping, but stopping to this point is like
¯_(ツ)_/¯ <– who cares LOL
¯_(ツ)_/¯ <– me too ROFL
¯_(ツ)_/¯ <– LEL too

I would suggest about thinking on a solution and a management to this, for example you can make a "6th week" into which every team who played against a dropping team will play a new game againts each other. Make a pair number of weeks so you don't have 5 teams, but 6 maybe, and you can do 3 matches.

About teams who don't show up, but still are into the league, then it will be a default as usual. What do you think?


Last edited by Erupo89,

Aoshi

(Head Admin)
800dpm
m a s o n

Quoted from Erupo89

[…]
What do you think?

Not thought trough and not properly manageable.

sasami

ERCAPITANO
VR

Quoted from Erupo89

[…]

I would suggest about thinking on a solution and a management to this, for example you can make a "6th week" into which every team who played against a dropping team will play a new game againts each other. Make a pair number of weeks so you don't have 5 teams, but 6 maybe, and you can do 3 matches.

So you are basically giving teams who played against dropping teams 1 more match? or what

sasami

ERCAPITANO
VR

Also, about the teams dropping thing, maybe you shouldn’t drop a team just because they kept changing their name and avatar, just saying

Maybe dropping teams after 2 def losses instead of 3? since we only play 5 weeks


Last edited by sasami,

scrambled

(ETF2L Donator)

I think its hard to make it fair in a league system where teams can drop out last minute, but I think a step in the right direction would be to make teams that have received a default win ineligible for a bye week.

Also what sasami said, reasons for force dropping teams mid season should be damn good ones, not for name changing.

Clark

SDCK

Quoted from sasami

[…]

So you are basically giving teams who played against dropping teams 1 more match? or what

What he’s trying to say is if there is an even number of teams who receive default wins they will have to play against each other instead of getting 6 points for free.

Quoted from scrambled

…but I think a step in the right direction would be to make teams that have received a default win ineligible for a bye week.

Let’s imagine you have two top4 teams that each have to face off against two bottom4 teams. One of those teams plays and gets all 6 points whilst the other receives a default win. Now the former is still eligible for a bye week which is free 6 points that increase playoffs possibilities, whilst the latter has to play potentially against another top4 team which they might not win. Either way it’s hurting the team that received a default win when it shouldn’t.

Now if you apply the “no bye-week” rule to the team that has given the default win it makes more sense, because now this team has to prove they deserve to be placed higher by playing an extra game.

AlesKee

(League Admin)
PEDO

The no bye week rule to teams who give defaults sounds good. S14?

CanFo

(Legend)
[HA]
#T4F

In regards to the suggested solution of giving teams that received a default win an extra match / cancel their bye week: How do you propose to handle teams that received 2 default wins? What about teams receiving 3? Or 4?
I’ll admit that this is more unlikely but in order to make a rule change like that, you need to come up with a fair solution to that case.

Taka

D6R

Can I use this chance to ask why the 5 week season is necessary anyway? The argument I’ve heard is that in a div with few teams, having played most opponents before the regular season ends means the swiss system can only give you relatively unfair matchups. But mathematically the closer you get to Round Robin the less random is your scoreboard. And right now down here in Open with 33 teams you can only make playoffs if you lose no more than 1 game. So all you can do is hope that over 5 iterations you don’t meet 2 or more of the teams that are better than you. (If you technically deserve 8th place, the chances are 28,19% to fail on pure bad luck. Yes I actually did the math). Meanwhile UGC has an 8 week swiss season for the 10 or so teams in australian plat and those standings are really fair. So what speaks against bringing back the 7 week season until high has less than 8 teams?

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